Number 9

[Niall]

mine does have an under tray....well did. now only has part of one.

Tom All VAGs ive driven/been in are boring, sound shit, and are generally underpowered for what they are.
toyotas are plastically, often look shit, are generally ugly but they are bullet proof. out of the two, i know what id own!

I really wish someone else had driven my golf to back me up on this, it certainly wasn't underpowered.

Agree they're boring but you cant have everything, and boring looks makes for a good sleeper.....plus all diesels sound shit, not just vag ones.

In all honesty, I do miss it, if I had the option, I'd take the golf over the Toyota every single day.

only once you had modified it....they are slow for a modern common rail derv

and i beg to differ with the sound! Ever been in a TDV8 landy? they sound good for a derv!
if i was after a fun car, it wouldnt be a vag or a toyota....well maybe a toyota but if i was after a reliable work horse, would be a toyota out of the two.

[Toms306]

They're not common rail though, they're pd which is why everything is more complicated and delicate (and expensive!). They had a 150 tdi out when Pug were still messing around with just 110bhp hdis, so not exactly undrpowered for thier age imo!

But the thing is, I can't afford 2 cars, so I have to merge a cheap to run workhorse, with a fast weekend car, and obviously this isn't an ideal situation, but imo the golf did well for it.

[Niall]

There common rail diesels tom.....what makes them any different from any other modern derv?

[Toms306]

They don't have a common rail for a start! the fuel pump is built into the injector, Google pumpe deuse if you're interested.

[Niall]

Yep so basically the principal between a PD and say a HDi is much the same

[Toms306]

Not really no. Obviously its all sticking diesel into a cylinder but its a very different sort of fuel metering and delivery. Closer to a hdi than a dt yeah, but still not really the same.

[THE_Liam]

It's like all VAG cars - needlessly complicated, expensive to fix and weak. What you have to ask yourself is, what's the advantage? A slight improvement in economy and power...

[bigcheez2k3]

They're not common rail though, they're pd which is why everything is more complicated and delicate (and expensive!). They had a 150 tdi out when Pug were still messing around with just 110bhp hdis, so not exactly undrpowered for thier age imo!

But the thing is, I can't afford 2 cars, so I have to merge a cheap to run workhorse, with a fast weekend car, and obviously this isn't an ideal situation, but imo the golf did well for it.

That's not really much of an argument you have there, you could probably look at the current VAG and PSA range, the VAG diesels will probably have more power, not because their technology is any better but because they've decided to make a higher powered one.

[Jonny81191]

Yeah, a stage 2 HDi is 150 brake, easy... and I'd bet that if pug had designed them out of the factory in that tune, they'd be at least as reliable as the VAG 150 lump.

So what're you getting at Tom?

[Toms306]

A stage 2 hdi requires lots of mods, not just enginewise but clutch, etc too. And afterall, you can stage 1 a pd130 up to 180bhp and a load more torque than the hdi, no other mods required. I still dont know why they didn't make hdis more powerful from the factory. It's like they thought 'right, these crap old dt's wont pass emmisions regs so we better get some common rail stuff.....its a bigger engine, with much more modern technology and electronic control that we could do so much with...but we won't make it any more powerful'.....why??? If you want to sell new cars make them more powerful than the previous model ffs, even I can work that out! . Make some shit ones for tight people yeah, but if they'd stuck a 130bhp hdi in the 306 I reckon they'd have sold loads of them, specially if they called it a gt hdi or something.

The 306 was a rival for the Golf, hence the much better build quality than the 106, and with about 8 grand of difference between the purchase prices of a top spec hdi and top spec pd150 I know which I'd have chosen from new! But then you know you'd be sitting in your new hdi at a set of lights, feeling smug that the guy in the next lane paid an extra 8 grand for his golf and didn't even get autowipers......then he shoots off and leaves you for dead with his epically torquey PD engine, vnt turbo, and doing it in comfort with a hydro clutch, nice dmf and 6 speed box for more economy than you're managing than your measly 90bhp hdi. I genuinely dont know which I'd have chosen from new, both have major downsides!

[Niall]

tom the thing your forgetting is that when people are out shopping for a brand new car, they are generally mid 20s and older and and not after a car for power....if your after a car for power, you dont buy a golf or a 306!
So really, the 306 made a good opponent to the golf...it was practically the same spec and had a very very reliable engine and were still 8k cheaper. and i dont care what you say, after spending pretty much all my life around the motor industry, VAGs are not that reliable!
DMFs are not nice, hence why the likes of VW, skoda ect replace them with solids under warranty when needed, hydro clutches are just another thing to go wrong, as my skoda proved and a 6speed box isnt always for economy. % speed box can also be very economical

[Kwik]

tom your wrong. vag used PD's on mk3 golfs only. mk1's and 2's were Idi like our xud's and mk4's 5's and 6's are all common rail.

PD's are what made all the manufacturer's move to common rail.

Sorry just had to clear that up carry on lol

[Toms306]

Actually kwik, you're extremely wrong there mk4s are pd! And even some mk5s were too.

[Kwik]

sorry just checked reg's and mk4's were. the move was 2005-2008 to common rail (just googled to double check lol)

and PD is what they use in boats but for cars emissions made them fail

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in my defence though i've only owned a mk1 gti and a couple of mk2's after that vag went crap to me

[Toms306]

tom the thing your forgetting is that when people are out shopping for a brand new car, they are generally mid 20s and older and and not after a car for power....if your after a car for power, you dont buy a golf or a 306!
So really, the 306 made a good opponent to the golf...it was practically the same spec and had a very very reliable engine and were still 8k cheaper. and i dont care what you say, after spending pretty much all my life around the motor industry, VAGs are not that reliable!
DMFs are not nice, hence why the likes of VW, skoda ect replace them with solids under warranty when needed, hydro clutches are just another thing to go wrong, as my skoda proved and a 6speed box isnt always for economy. % speed box can also be very economical

I still haven't said vags are reliable lol? . Infact earlier I specifically said they were just as unreliable as any other car lol.

I see your point about older people buying cars.....but tell me your dad/grandad doesn't still drive a fast car? And if they all wanted slow, no 150tdis would've been sold. BUT they're ideal due to gettin.g a safe comfortable car to take the kids to school, then a quick car when they've got out, and an excellent motorway cruiser for your daily commute with the added bonus of real cheap tax and 60mpg. If you want a sports car you buy an aston obviously.....but for an all rounder, most people still want power too.


Dmfs are nice when they work, just like most other things lol. It's just a shame they can't come up with a better designed stronger one. And hydro clutches are nice, as are proper fbw throttles, was getting cramp from actually having to push pedals hard in the avensis after getting used to the golf haha.

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sorry just checked reg's and mk4's were. the move was 2005-2008 to common rail (just googled to double check lol)

and PD is what they use in boats but for cars emissions made them fail

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in my defence though i've only owned a mk1 gti and a couple of mk2's after that vag went crap to me

No problem, check your facts before telling me I'm wrong next time though eh.

And yeah, emmisions regs will ruin all engines eventually! Would love to have known my nox levels with de EGR and decat though haha

[Niall]

Didn't really explain my self very well. What I'm saying is the majority of the market is people who just want a car to get them from a to b. that's the reason why the likes of the gti didn't sell anywhere near as well as the hdi.
And how can you life flyby wire throttles? If yours is anything like mine, it's harder to keep control of the speed you want to do and does your ankle no good being hinged at the floor! And DMFs, even when working are pretty pointless. Learn how to use a clutch and there completely irrelevant.

Edit: oh and my grandad drives a pug 3008 and my old man drives either a pug partner or my 6 seeing as he rarely has use for a car now days! Just because your older and can afford the insurance on a faster car doesn't mean you should do it!

[Kwik]

i think your both missing the point anyway.

Cars are cars with modern manufacturing techniques being as they are they are all substantally the same like samsungs and apples lol.

If you want real fun get a superbike i have car and a bike. the car is my daily but when i want some insane adrenaline i opt for the 600 ninja.........

[procta]

tom i think you should buy a nice highly powered motor bike, they will rev well over 4k for you and give you great mpg as well as speed!

[cpikey316_]

No 150bhp Hdi? Probably the same reason peugeot 'allegedly' had to tune back the 1.9td, as it was completing with the sportier XSi.

[THE_Liam]

No 150bhp Hdi? Probably the same reason peugeot 'allegedly' had to tune back the 1.9td, as it was completing with the sportier XSi.

Why allegedly? Why else would 20-30bhp be available at the turn of a screw? You can't tell me Peugeot would get the tuning that wrong?

[Toms306]

Didn't really explain my self very well. What I'm saying is the majority of the market is people who just want a car to get them from a to b. that's the reason why the likes of the gti didn't sell anywhere near as well as the hdi.
And how can you life flyby wire throttles? If yours is anything like mine, it's harder to keep control of the speed you want to do and does your ankle no good being hinged at the floor! And DMFs, even when working are pretty pointless. Learn how to use a clutch and there completely irrelevant.

Edit: oh and my grandad drives a pug 3008 and my old man drives either a pug partner or my 6 seeing as he rarely has use for a car now days! Just because your older and can afford the insurance on a faster car doesn't mean you should do it!

Hmm, that's fair enough I guess. Was going on my own experiences - my dad drives a v6 mondeo, my uncle drives a 525d now he's sold the Marcos, my grandad drove a c3 vtr....not exactly slow pov spec cars lol.

Nope mine wasn't like yours it was a proper pedal in the right place lol. And have you been in a pd with a smf conversion? The noise is ridiculous lol, my mate done it on his mk5!!

i think your both missing the point anyway.

Cars are cars with modern manufacturing techniques being as they are they are all substantally the same like samsungs and apples lol.

If you want real fun get a superbike i have car and a bike. the car is my daily but when i want some insane adrenaline i opt for the 600 ninja.........

I've never seen the attraction of bikes myself. Requires effort to balance and you have to keep putting feet down to stop. Can't make any sudden/stupid manouvres at speed like you can with 4 wheels. I hate wind rush with a window down, must be horrible on a bike. Plus i guess you don't use a ninja in the winter lol, but any sort of weather other than sun is crap too......rain, wind, snow, freezing temps don't really bother me on a nice warm, dry car.....

But I can see its the adrenaline they that you get out of it, but its not for me lol.

No 150bhp Hdi? Probably the same reason peugeot 'allegedly' had to tune back the 1.9td, as it was completing with the sportier XSi.

Then make a better xsi, its shit anyway, they could've got near enough the same power from the 1.8 if they'd tried. The xsi is irrelevant imo, not good enough to warrant buying that over the 1.8, or if you'd got it, spend a bit more for a 6. They should've atleast made the hdi as quick as the 1.8 imo (remind me again why they didn't put the 110 in the 306?).......which is actually what vag did, 1.8t is 150bhp, gt tdi is 150bhp, and they still had faster petrols so they didn't lose out selling those.

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No 150bhp Hdi? Probably the same reason peugeot 'allegedly' had to tune back the 1.9td, as it was completing with the sportier XSi.

Why allegedly? Why else would 20-30bhp be available at the turn of a screw? You can't tell me Peugeot would get the tuning that wrong?

They're not tuned for power though. They're tuned for emmisions regs, economy, range of temperatures, and to keep the engine as long as the warranty, throwing rods after a few years wouldn't be ideal lol.

Same as any car, which is why fiddling screws or flashing maps usually gets you an extra 20bhp plus on most diesels.

Still not an excuse for that poor amount of power from a 1.9 though lol.

[THE_Liam]

A stage 1 won't make an XUD throw rods Tom. With a shimmed governor and a reshaped LDA an XUD can make 130-140bhp and still pass an MOT, I'm not saying it was intended to make that much but it's not a 90bhp engine, it's 110bhp and detuned. You haven't had an XUD, a stage 1 just transforms it, you can tell that's how it was meant to be

[C.A.R.]

You said it yourself Tom, they were built to be reliable.

They are also built to a spec to enable them to be insurable. VAG diesel insurance groups reflect that,

MK4 GT TDi 130 = Group 27
-- = -- TDi 150 = Group 31

Whereas-

Pug 1.9DT = Group 11
Pug 2.0 HDi = Group 11

Oh wait a minute.

The other thing is component failures. VAG do have an incredibly high build quality, but that doesn't mean they are all inherently reliable. For a start, there are more components which can fail. These components are also much more complex / complicated and intricate compared to a similar CR engine.

One other thing that strikes me as 'odd' in your argument...

If VAG PD engines are sooooo good, why have they recently been made obsolete?

[Toms306]

Where'd you get that from? Both the 130 and 150PD are group 27, and both cost the same to insure for me, I chose the 130 as it was supposedly more reliable and less prone to dmf/cam failure. Wish I'd have just bought a 150 and mapped that, no other mods - cheaper insurance that way.

PD engines don't meet the latest emmisions regs, thats why ALL engines die out eventually. None of the 306 engines could be made in new cars today either. Yes they're still using the TU series, but its very different to the 20 year old one....

[C.A.R.]

Yes but the very technology which made the PD engines 'work' is now obsolete Tom...That's what I'm getting at.

150PD is group 31 I'm sure.

[Toms306]

Yes but the very technology which made the PD engines 'work' is now obsolete Tom...That's what I'm getting at.

150PD is group 31 I'm sure.

Technology is always obsolete, how many people still have Nokia 3210s? None, the technology becomes obselete when new ways are found of doing things and the majority of people now have smart phones. Same with IDI diesels and lucas pumps, new tech at the time, but they've died out now too, due to emmisions regs mainly. VW moved thier research onto the GDi and turbo/supercharging small petrols, as this a better way of getting power and good emmisions and mpg so they've given up on diesel a bit, or thats the way I see it anyway. Dont forget the PD is around 15 years old now, not much tech lasts that long, tapes were all the rage when I was growing up, that technology looks shit now we have solid state drives and stuff, everything has a built in obsolecence.

And I know its not always accurate but parkers says 27 and it cost me the same to insure a 150 so I guess it must be right.

[C.A.R.]

Forgive me, the PD150 'Anni' model is the higher group insurance, pressumably all those extra spoilers and plastic bits add up.

[Toms306]

Ah right, I didn't realise it was a higher group, looking like something out of ripspeed I wouldn't think anyone would want to nick Annis lol, bloody awful bodykit imo!

[C.A.R.]

Agree. The anni models attract a massive premium from the VAG fanbois, it's absurd. Plus, they look ridiculous, the bumper 'chin' just looks like an afterthought!

[Toms306]

Wow, we agree on something Chris! On that bombshell I'm off.