Keep 306 HDI or buy Fabia VRS

[MY95]

Just been looking at the problems the pd engines have...

Mainly cam issues isn't it?

---

I wouldn't say the PD fuel system is worse...  Worse for emissions yeah, which is why they can't use it anymore, but power and economy the 1.9PD wins over 2.0HDi any day!  1.9PD still wins over 1.6HDi in both of those areas...

Also what a lot are missing with BHP figures here (it's a diesel, who cares!?) is the torque figure...look at the torque from a stage 1 PD180...I don't know why but those engines manage tonnes of torque really easily!

I still haven't had anything as torquey since the Golf...

Unless you're deaf, the PD is a sack of crap in comparison... They're rougher than XUDs imho, their delivery is way too harsh and PD is realistically no better than a rotary pump, it's only advantage is more pressure...

VNT does give you a wider powerband, it's not all about torque, it's all to do with how good the delivery is... Spend what you would getting a Fabia on changing out the turbo for a VNT unit on a HDi and it'll absolutely spank a PD in terms of delivery... And not sound like a the contents of Halfords in a washing machine.

Problem is, a HDI with a VNT wouldn't last as long as a 1.9PD with a VNT, wouldn't be as reliable either I wouldn't have thought. And the fabia would put the power down better, not just due to the wheels., and would have more power/torque too.
Although it does seem as if the HDI is the better engine, if kept under the 180bhp mark and is rebuilt. Would love a go at a VNT'd HDI 90 compared to a non VNT one, would be worlds apart.

[Piggy]

Why would a vnt hdi be unreliable?!?!

[MY95]

With the mileages/age of most 306 HDI's now, doubling the power and torque isnt going to be the most reliable really, unless we are talking a newly rebuilt engine with new 'upgraded' parts ie pump, sensor, turbo, intercooler etc.

[Piggy]

Yeah thats naturally the case.
Tbh, the pds have huge mileage on them now too... I'd take a badly serviced hdi high miler over a pd one

[Toms306]

Lol so not that torquey really. Volvo has 400nm as standard

But the Volvo is worth like £10k and several years newer...hardly a fair comparison lol.

Looks like I'm alone in liking the 1.9PD though, I'd take a stage 1 PD (though probably in a Leon rather than Fabia) over a stage 1 306 HDi any day tbh. Each to their own, these threads are always pointless, Matt, you really should take one (or more) for a drive and make your own mind up.

[Piggy]

Same comparison though tom with a PD/car engine vs a hdi engine/car

[Anton]

Merely comparing a more modern vnt turbo diesel

[Toms306]

Not really, 1.9PDs and 2.0HDi's were both around at the same time, aimed at the same audience, and there isn't a huge price gap between them now for equivalent condition and miles.

The PD's are also at the age now, where a lot have had the cams & lifters and the DMF & clutch done, and tbh very little else goes wrong with them. First one I owned for a year and the only issue was a blown intercooler, cheap and easy to replace.

[Matt-Rallye]

Tom just shhh, PD engines are shite.

The fact i have a buyers market for crappy PD engine and not one at all for HDi motors tells me everything i need to know

[Toms306]

Tom just shhh, PD engines are shite.

The fact i have a buyers market for crappy PD engine and not one at all for HDi motors tells me everything i need to know

I bet you sell nearly as many PDs as XUDs...

[Matt-Rallye]

Tom just shhh, PD engines are shite.

The fact i have a buyers market for crappy PD engine and not one at all for HDi motors tells me everything i need to know

I bet you sell nearly as many PDs as XUDs...

HDi's and XUD's usually go straight in the crusher as theres no market for them! The worse something is.. the more demand there is for it

[Ruan]

Just been looking at the problems the pd engines have...

Mainly cam issues isn't it?

---

I wouldn't say the PD fuel system is worse...  Worse for emissions yeah, which is why they can't use it anymore, but power and economy the 1.9PD wins over 2.0HDi any day!  1.9PD still wins over 1.6HDi in both of those areas...

Also what a lot are missing with BHP figures here (it's a diesel, who cares!?) is the torque figure...look at the torque from a stage 1 PD180...I don't know why but those engines manage tonnes of torque really easily!

I still haven't had anything as torquey since the Golf...

Unless you're deaf, the PD is a sack of crap in comparison... They're rougher than XUDs imho, their delivery is way too harsh and PD is realistically no better than a rotary pump, it's only advantage is more pressure...

VNT does give you a wider powerband, it's not all about torque, it's all to do with how good the delivery is... Spend what you would getting a Fabia on changing out the turbo for a VNT unit on a HDi and it'll absolutely spank a PD in terms of delivery... And not sound like a the contents of Halfords in a washing machine.

Problem is, a HDI with a VNT wouldn't last as long as a 1.9PD with a VNT, wouldn't be as reliable either I wouldn't have thought. And the fabia would put the power down better, not just due to the wheels., and would have more power/torque too.
Although it does seem as if the HDI is the better engine, if kept under the 180bhp mark and is rebuilt. Would love a go at a VNT'd HDI 90 compared to a non VNT one, would be worlds apart.

Absolute bollocks.

You've massively confused torque and power delivery. Too much torque makes a car drive like shit, you want a wide powerband. This is a 2.0HDi 8v RHY 90hp vs a 2.0 16v HDi RHR 136hp:



136 HDi:



Same torque, same power, which is going to drive better...

I don't know where this unreliability thing comes from, yes, if you treat your car like shit, don't service it well, scrimp, it will be unreliable. If you service it well, it'll last you years. It's people putting on second hand parts that causes problems.. Of course, people simply cannot get over "spending xxx on a £300 car"... Just because the Fabia is perceived to be worth more...

PD vs HDi - if you give them the same turbo, they will make around the same power as each other, however the HDi will not sound like shit and be rough as f*ck! I don't know where this thing that HDis can't make power comes from... Remember the HDi has a 46mm turbo, is it any wonder that they won't make any power?

Stick on the GT1749V off a PD130, it'll make the same 180hp that a PD130 will.

All I see is people bodging HDis because they're a "cheap runabout".

[Paul_13]

[Ruan]

Story of my life!!!

[Toms306]

It's not that the HDi's can't make power, its the effort and expense you have to go to for it.

You can buy a PD130, get a £45 map from blacksmoke.com and have 180bhp/380Nm instantly with a nicer powerband. Sure it's probably not the best map around but I've flashed their maps to quite a few cars that are still going strong 3/4 years later!

To do the same with a HDi you've gotta buy a GT1749v, make up adapters for it, fit an intercooler and piping, fit a better clutch, have it remapped at what I guess is around £200 nowadays... And you still don't have the comfort, refinement and spec of a modern car. And the truth is, most 306s handle like crap these days which is meant to be their redeeming feature...of course you could replace every piece of suspension and steering with new genuine stuff (not ebay shite) but that's a lot more time and expense on a car that's still worth sod all when you come to sell...

Also have to think about insurance, Admiral group won't cover intercooler mods for youngsters at least, and they may struggle to get modified insurance.

I put a lot of thought into it back when I bought the first GT TDI 130 back in June 2011...for me it's still what I'd buy today. I don't mind the rough engine note as VW know how to sound deaden cars (unlike Peugeot or Ford it seems!) and tbh the DV6 sounds doesn't exactly sound refined lol. Granted they don't handle like a NEW 306, but no worse than the knackered old ones these days lol. Oh and the air con usually still works in them lol.

[powerandtorque]

Granted they don't handle like a NEW 306, but no worse than the knackered old ones these days lol.  Oh and the air con usually still works in them lol.

It would be a very knackered 306 to handle as badly as a Mk4 Golf, even my estate with leggy Meridian spec dampers and tired P-bushes is a finely honed sports car in comparison.... especially as lets be honest, most Golf's are equally knackered these days. given that they've fallen into the "shed" price bracket and the ownership mentality/demographic that brings with it.

If you want cheap power and quality feeling soft touch plastics then great, but they're not for me... and I'm certainly not one that believes that 306's are the best car ever.

[Ruan]

Granted they don't handle like a NEW 306, but no worse than the knackered old ones these days lol.  Oh and the air con usually still works in them lol.

It would be a very knackered 306 to handle as badly as a Mk4 Golf, even my estate with leggy Meridian spec dampers and tired P-bushes is a finely honed sports car in comparison.... especially as lets be honest, most Golf's are equally knackered these days. given that they've fallen into the "shed" price bracket and the ownership mentality/demographic that brings with it.

If you want cheap power and quality feeling soft touch plastics then great, but they're not for me... and I'm certainly not one that believes that 306's are the best car ever.

This!

Would rather chew off my own pubic hair than drive a Mk4.

[Toms306]

Granted they don't handle like a NEW 306, but no worse than the knackered old ones these days lol.  Oh and the air con usually still works in them lol.

It would be a very knackered 306 to handle as badly as a Mk4 Golf, even my estate with leggy Meridian spec dampers and tired P-bushes is a finely honed sports car in comparison.... especially as lets be honest, most Golf's are equally knackered these days. given that they've fallen into the "shed" price bracket and the ownership mentality/demographic that brings with it.

If you want cheap power and quality feeling soft touch plastics then great, but they're not for me... and I'm certainly not one that believes that 306's are the best car ever.

They are very knackered now...have you seen the beams on most of them...getting the same camber as the VAG crowd aim for... Can't ruin shocks and springs to the same point that you can a beam/mounts, I hate the loose rear end feeling that 306s have, I know some people enjoy the feeling of imminent death from it though. I've never LOOS'd or had a tank slapper in a Mk4 compared with quite a few times in 306s... Just understeered into a kerb a few times in the Mk4, pretty predictable. But 306s understeer as well with my lack of skill...Fiesta corners much better with a dead shock and crap tyres somehow....just goes to show the extent of ruin that 306s have got to I guess...

It's not the soft touch plastic that I'm bothered by, ignoring the power or handling for a minute, it's things like cruise control, climate control, modern looking clocks with trip/mpg computer, one touch windows all round, hydraulic clutch, cable shift, lighter PAS, 6 speed, more comfortable ride, sound deadening, arm rest, even the dull thud of heavy doors compared to the clicky check strap and tinny twang of 306 doors etc etc. It is personal preference, and you clearly prefer older stuff, but for me I prefer the more modern stuff. I seem to remember 306s with rose tinted glasses, get excited when buying one and looking at them...then really disappointed when I actually drive one!! Honestly don't know how I drove them daily back in the day, with the most recent '6s it just felt like a chore to drive and I kept making excuses not to drive it... Been spoilt with modern stuff and can't go back now I guess lol, but my longest owned cars were a 2001 Golf (11 months), 2006 Vectra (12 months) and the 2008 Focus (21 months and counting!)... 4th longest was a 1.4 306 (8 months) having only owned 306s before it, since owning modern stuff I haven't owned any 306 for more than about 3 months through preferring the modern stuff. Point is it's purely down to preference, so people really need to spend time in different cars rather than asking what we think. And I mean spend long enough to get used to it...no point going for a 10 minute drive as you'll hate anything in that time (or at least I do lol).

Would rather chew off my own pubic hair than drive a Mk4.

Well each to their own I guess, I'd even drive a Corsa over chewing off pubic hair I think...

[toseland]

Yeah thats naturally the case.
Tbh, the pds have huge mileage on them now too... I'd take a badly serviced hdi high miler over a pd one

I would take a badly serviced HDi over a brand new PD tbh..

---

Granted they don't handle like a NEW 306, but no worse than the knackered old ones these days lol.  Oh and the air con usually still works in them lol.

It would be a very knackered 306 to handle as badly as a Mk4 Golf, even my estate with leggy Meridian spec dampers and tired P-bushes is a finely honed sports car in comparison.... especially as lets be honest, most Golf's are equally knackered these days. given that they've fallen into the "shed" price bracket and the ownership mentality/demographic that brings with it.

If you want cheap power and quality feeling soft touch plastics then great, but they're not for me... and I'm certainly not one that believes that 306's are the best car ever.

They are very knackered now...have you seen the beams on most of them...getting the same camber as the VAG crowd aim for...  Can't ruin shocks and springs to the same point that you can a beam/mounts, I hate the loose rear end feeling that 306s have, I know some people enjoy the feeling of imminent death from it though.  I've never LOOS'd or had a tank slapper in a Mk4 compared with quite a few times in 306s...  Just understeered into a kerb a few times in the Mk4, pretty predictable.  But 306s understeer as well with my lack of skill...Fiesta corners much better with a dead shock and crap tyres somehow....just goes to show the extent of ruin that 306s have got to I guess...  

It's not the soft touch plastic that I'm bothered by, ignoring the power or handling for a minute, it's things like cruise control, climate control, modern looking clocks with trip/mpg computer, one touch windows all round, hydraulic clutch, cable shift, lighter PAS, 6 speed, more comfortable ride, sound deadening, arm rest, even the dull thud of heavy doors compared to the clicky check strap and tinny twang of 306 doors etc etc.  It is personal preference, and you clearly prefer older stuff, but for me I prefer the more modern stuff.  I seem to remember 306s with rose tinted glasses, get excited when buying one and looking at them...then really disappointed when I actually drive one!!  Honestly don't know how I drove them daily back in the day, with the most recent '6s it just felt like a chore to drive and I kept making excuses not to drive it...  Been spoilt with modern stuff and can't go back now I guess lol, but my longest owned cars were a 2001 Golf (11 months), 2006 Vectra (12 months) and the 2008 Focus (21 months and counting!)...  4th longest was a 1.4 306 (8 months) having only owned 306s before it, since owning modern stuff I haven't owned any 306 for more than about 3 months through preferring the modern stuff.  Point is it's purely down to preference, so people really need to spend time in different cars rather than asking what we think.  And I mean spend long enough to get used to it...no point going for a 10 minute drive as you'll hate anything in that time (or at least I do lol).

Would rather chew off my own pubic hair than drive a Mk4.

Well each to their own I guess, I'd even drive a Corsa over chewing off pubic hair I think...

Toms... your boyfriend from the VAG appreciation society called, he wants his tongue back!

Lets settle this argument..

IF you want to pick up men on grindr and make a good impression with your profile photo,  get a golf, fabia Passat or A4...

if you want a car that is better handling and more as fun to drive, more reliable than the PDs when tuned and doesn't sound like someone took a tin of money onto a trampoline, then get the HDi

[r3k1355]

You pretty much HAVE to buy the vrs now, otherwise you'll just be a total pussy.

[rtha6551]

So much stupidity in this thread

Love to see a HDi run 270+ bhp 400ft lbs reliably like so many modified 1.9 and 2.0 PD engines do. 

Wrong forum to try and educate people on though. 306s are bags of sh*te at the end of the day, can't deny they are a lot of fun for the money and easy to get decent power from but to try and claim they're better than everything else is daft.

[Piggy]

No one has bothered to try to make 270bhp and 400ft lbs...

More than possible though. And reliably too. Bet it be cheaper too.

[bashbarnard]

So much stupidity in this thread

Love to see a HDi run 270+ bhp 400ft lbs reliably like so many modified 1.9 and 2.0 PD engines do. 

Wrong forum to try and educate people on though. 306s are bags of sh*te at the end of the day, can't deny they are a lot of fun for the money and easy to get decent power from but to try and claim they're better than everything else is daft.

Dont et me wrong the pd engines are capable of good power. But who on here pays a grand for a turbo then 800 on injectors 400 on a clutch. I bet the only person is darren or maybe tom with the meken pump. Both prove both diesel engines are MORE than capable.

Just us lot are a bit more experimental, when was the last time you heard a vw boy go "you know i want that turbo but it doesnt fit. Im going to fit it anyway" never. Its almost every other page on here


f*cking rant iver

[Piggy]

Amen to that

[Seb_Ryan]

Yeah VAG shite is basically jump on the bandwagon, fit this uprated turbo that bolts straight on, this intercooler set that is £ra*e i work opposite gwent vw who do all this.. 800 quid for turbos, 1200 for big brake set up, and they ALL always sound rough as.. I bet there is only a handfull of turbos ever tried on a pd, and alot more for xuds.. There was a hdi engine running 400bhp on here, that tractor pulling guy? Why didnt he go for a pd i wonded?

Btw im not biased i drive an alfa 2.4 so not even close to any of them, but again with those, only a few people have changed the turbos to 20v ones because thats all that will fit with just a map and no bodging

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

[Matt-Rallye]

So much stupidity in this thread

Love to see a HDi run 270+ bhp 400ft lbs reliably like so many modified 1.9 and 2.0 PD engines do. 

Wrong forum to try and educate people on though. 306s are bags of sh*te at the end of the day, can't deny they are a lot of fun for the money and easy to get decent power from but to try and claim they're better than everything else is daft.

Unfortunately not as some of us actually know what we are talking about, PD engines are NOT reliable when standard let alone when modified.

Throw the same money these VAG boys do at a HDi and you'll see far more reliable power.

Or you could just buy the megane and have EPIC handling and more power with smoother delivery than both. A stage 1 map on mine with no other modifications makes more & more usable power than ANY pd motor does at stage 2+

Funnily i have little demand for 2.0 M9R motors either but what would i know?

[toseland]

Yeah VAG shite is basically jump on the bandwagon, fit this uprated turbo that bolts straight on, this intercooler set that is £ra*e i work opposite gwent vw who do all this.. 800 quid for turbos, 1200 for big brake set up, and they ALL always sound rough as.. I bet there is only a handfull of turbos ever tried on a pd, and alot more for xuds.. There was a hdi engine running 400bhp on here, that tractor pulling guy? Why didnt he go for a pd i wonded?

Btw im not biased i drive an alfa 2.4 so not even close to any of them, but again with those, only a few people have changed the turbos to 20v ones because thats all that will fit with just a map and no bodging

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

there IS a HDi engine running 400+ BHP reliably,  he has a budget of 1000Euros per year and runs chronic boost (over 7bar peak) reasonably reliably..

some of the work done includes

stronger valve springs,
increased head oil pressure (custom, simple mod) to assist stronger springs
forged rods and pistons
HUGE turbo, un-wastegated
Scania V8 injectors.
skimmed and faced head and a little machining work on the ports and valve seats.


That doesn't seem like a huge amount of work



The lifters on the VAG lumps are shit. Cams on the VAG engines are shit.  Primarily because they have thinner cam lobes than most (all) other engines.. so start giving them tune and they start to shit cams and lifters like the morning after a vindaloo and beers.

things that screw lifters on PD engines include... sustained higher speed driving (that should be read, motorway speeds 70mph+) any sort of tune, Longlife servicing.. not using a specific oil type.

I have seen serious cam wear on engines with as little as 70000 miles,  these weren't tuned beasts. these were standard family golfs with yearly oil changes..

http://www.evvo.co.uk/xf/threads/tdi-pd-...-of.20496/
That post there was a quick google of PD cam failure,   and highlights the problems.


I have seen the camshaft on a HDi engine with nearly 800000 miles on it and it looks good as new. (no, not a new head either) cant say I have seen that many PD engines with over 200,000 miles on.

[powerandtorque]

From what little I know of PD engines, isn't at least part of the problem that they're not all created equal?

I know for example that PD150's are notorious cam issues even as standard, and some variants of the later lower tune 1.9's (PD105?) routinely knock out big-ends or throw rods, again even at standard power. I know that BXE engine codes are one of the later problemsome ones but there's probably others too.

As Matt_Rallye implies above, you can usually get a good idea of reliability looking at availability and pricing of 2nd hand engines - some of the VAG PD engines are cheap because they're broadly reliable and thus there's limited demand for them, whereas others are bordering on unobtainium and priced accordingly.

Of course, it's hardly an issue unique to VAG - PSA 1.6 HDi's are notorious for starving turbos of oil, Renault 2.2DCI's are a joke, and BMW N47 chain failures too.

[Ruan]

TBF, HDis do have fuel system issues... They are early generation 1 commonrail, so the LP/HP pumps do tend to wear out, the injectors wear also... But I'd say no more than other cars, it's just that PSA stuff tends to be "cheap runabout" category, therefore treated like shit, never serviced then moan when they start going wrong.

From my experience of PSA stuff, if it was serviced well and looked after, they won't cause any problems.

The engines themselves however are not weak, XUDs do get rod failures - but when you understand the forces involved, it's not hugely surprising that they do... Horsepower isn't directly relational to rod breakage, peak cylinder pressure is - and a 21:1 compression ratio doesn't help matters.

Also, anyone who says the 2.0TDi engine is reliable knows nothing about VAG TDis... I don't deal with VAG much and I know of: Snapped oil pump chains, cracked heads leaking water down the inlet, failing injectors, the 170 DPF is shit, failing turbos, flywheel failures.

[lolsteve]

For a drive about daily, it would be the fabia every time with its hydraulic clutch

Sorry but the PD is just a good all rounder, easy to have power from, decent mpg and the engine goes on and on. Witnessed a tuned pd having a spirited drive with hg failure and drank all its coolant and then smashed the sump open and continued on for a good couple of miles the only thing killing it after a new sump was someone crashing into it. They also seem pretty simple to work on, there's plenty of support for them. Okay maybe they're a bit scene queeny for some but who cares if you just want to drive it.

The HDi is a bit more refined but its a different style of diesel technology, even still I dont find PDs to be that rough. Not the smoothest but not quite the cold morning XUD running veg
A real shame for the HDi is not having a VNT from factory