dw10 crank swap 400HP

[DavidA]

I have Vizard's book on tuning the A-series, didn't know he did other engines too.

[japie]

Never met the men but read a couple of his books, petrol or diesel doesn't matter for flow.

Some more interesting stuff more turbo and diesel specific:
Corky Bell - Maximum Boost
Joe Mondello - Performance Diesel Head & Engine Preps

[japie]

Little update on this subject after another season of pulling, with the work last winter I ran whole season without any trouble and no bearing damage so my intel could be of use for someone else:

* 2.1l crankshaft from a XUD11
* 86mm bore with billet pistons (if anyone likes to make there own give a jell I send the drawing)
* crank main bearings stock, grinded a groove in the cast of the block and made some extra holes in the top bearing so the bearing groove isn't the only thing spreading the oil.
* big end bearings are GL4558/4 (little more clearance)

[Poodle]

Very interesting to know, thanks a lot for updating.

[bashbarnard]

Ive got a 2.1 crank sitting in the scrap

[Dum-Dum]

Yeah cheers for coming back to us with that information.

[JTaylor2005]

:O those things are mad.

So if he got 400hp @7000rpm. If we built an engine like his and ran at 250hp that should be pretty cushty? haha

[toseland]

JONNY!!!!! WANT!

[zx_volcane]

Little update on this subject after another season of pulling, with the work last winter I ran whole season without any trouble and no bearing damage so my intel could be of use for someone else:

* 2.1l crankshaft from a XUD11
* 86mm bore with billet pistons (if anyone likes to make there own give a jell I send the drawing)
* crank main bearings stock, grinded a groove in the cast of the block and made some extra holes in the top bearing so the bearing groove isn't the only thing spreading the oil.
* big end bearings are GL4558/4 (little more clearance)

Very good of you to come back and update us, glad you've had a good season

Presume you had new conrods made up to go with the 2.1 crank?

Any pics of the pistons ..etc sound absolute pr0n!

[japie]

Here the wanted pics, first the modified bearings the idea is a BMW F1 rip-off:
   

These are the rods and pistons as they came out after last year, big end bearings are OK but the experiment with more bearing clearance on the crank wasn't a good idea so back to the original...
   

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Very good of you to come back and update us, glad you've had a good season

Presume you had new conrods made up to go with the 2.1 crank?

Any pics of the pistons ..etc sound absolute pr0n!

Season was pretty good yes, we where 1st and 2nd in Dutch competition and the European championship so the VW guys went home crying...

I used my own 2.0 rods but had to make some extra room in the block for it (you see it on the pic) the other machine is using a 2.2 block now and that one has new longer rods.

[Piggy]

Check out those rods! Wow!

[Poodle]

Yeah, wow, they are rather beefy.

[welshpug]

not really, they have to look like that because of the material used

[Poodle]

My mistake lol.

[Piggy]

My mistake lol.

We need to go to specsavers obviously.

Puney rods.

[japie]

The first set of those rods where developed and made by us, for the 2nd and 3th engine we asked a friendly machinery to make some sets so we have over 30 at stock for other teams:
http://www.struyk-techniek.nl/webshop/in...ucts_id=98
However they are only used in tractor pulling so far so no clue if they will hold up in "daily" use. (so far)

This winter I am gonna build a DW10 engine for use in a rally cross car. (so end of next year I know if the rods are also usable inside long live engine)
I will also make some postings here about that project since that information could be useful for you guys to.

The cross engine will have the aluminium rods and home made billet pistons (like the puller) with stock bore (so I can use my left over pistons from last year) and a slightly higher compression ratio 13:1 (the puller is 12.2:1) since it will have a lot lower boost. (setting the waste gate to 3bar for starters, on the puller no waste gate and got readings up to 6.2bar turbo pressure this season)
For fuel delivery I will use Land Rover 300tdi parts, stock fuel pump and stock injectors would be good for up to 200cc within 30 crank degrees. (on our pullers we have one with 235cc@20degree and the other with 300cc@30degree, also using 300tdi injectors only replaced the nozzles with Bosch 144P144 from a Scania truck, removed the pilot injection part and set basic pressure at 320bar)
The Bosch VE pump from the LaRo is turbo pressure regulated, will take some fiddling to get it responsive to the high boost pressure but for sure it will make a lot more power then the crappy common rail does...

---

Here the drawing for stock bore pistons, they make use of the stock piston rings and a shortened piston pin.
Missing are the pin "locker" grooves, some cuts from oil scraper ring to below and all fillets...

You can edit, view and convert the file with FreeCAD: http://www.freecadweb.org


  zuiger_V2.FCStd.zip (Size: 144.25 KB / Downloads: 9)

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And here the piston for 86mm bore with 2.1 crank:


  zuiger7075_boring86.FCStd.zip (Size: 235.24 KB / Downloads: 8)

[bashbarnard]

Thanks for all the info. If the rods hold up in daily abuse im sure you could sell quite a few on here. I for one may be interested.

[japie]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/dY-AUoOC17E

[Jonny81191]

not really, they have to look like that because of the material used

Obviously, they're made larger than the stock rods because of the material. Absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they're designed to hold 400BHP

This is all very interesting, and I look forward to seeing more updates!

[japie]

Obviously, they're made larger than the stock rods because of the material. Absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they're designed to hold 400BHP

Don't know about the BHP but stock rods will bend in the first run and break the second, if you harden them they will have some benefit but are then still half the strength of the billets...

This doesn't have to be power itself that does it but can also be compression, if you put 5bar in it strange things happen.
Also injection timing and duration has a big influence, since we put more fuel in that can burn in a "normal" power stroke we have to inject sooner so it's all burned before TDC, with the 235cc we start injecting at 37 degree before TDC and with the fast one we started at 50 before TDC but then the pistons cracked in half (not billets) and the bearings where flattened so we ended up with 45 before TDC and a bit longer duration.

This is our second machine, more fuel, bigger turbo (HX50), more flow:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/JK...directlink

[Piggy]

Hold. The. Phone.

6.2bar. Oh my lady gaga. I have the fizz

[toseland]

The first set of those rods where developed and made by us, for the 2nd and 3th engine we asked a friendly machinery to make some sets so we have over 30 at stock for other teams:
http://www.struyk-techniek.nl/webshop/in...ucts_id=98
However they are only used in tractor pulling so far so no clue if they will hold up in "daily" use. (so far)

This winter I am gonna build a DW10 engine for use in a rally cross car. (so end of next year I know if the rods are also usable inside long live engine)
I will also make some postings here about that project since that information could be useful for you guys to.

The cross engine will have the aluminium rods and home made billet pistons (like the puller) with stock bore (so I can use my left over pistons from last year) and a slightly higher compression ratio 13:1 (the puller is 12.2:1) since it will have a lot lower boost. (setting the waste gate to 3bar for starters, on the puller no waste gate and got readings up to 6.2bar turbo pressure this season)
For fuel delivery I will use Land Rover 300tdi parts, stock fuel pump and stock injectors would be good for up to 200cc within 30 crank degrees. (on our pullers we have one with 235cc@20degree and the other with 300cc@30degree, also using 300tdi injectors only replaced the nozzles with Bosch 144P144 from a Scania truck, removed the pilot injection part and set basic pressure at 320bar)
The Bosch VE pump from the LaRo is turbo pressure regulated, will take some fiddling to get it responsive to the high boost pressure but for sure it will make a lot more power then the crappy common rail does...

---

Here the drawing for stock bore pistons, they make use of the stock piston rings and a shortened piston pin.
Missing are the pin "locker" grooves, some cuts from oil scraper ring to below and all fillets...

You can edit, view and convert the file with FreeCAD: http://www.freecadweb.org

---

And here the piston for 86mm bore with 2.1 crank:

This thread is of massive interest to me..  i was looking at higher power levels with the HDi i currently have and there is lots of information about rods, and pistons, sumps and turbos but less so about the valve train.

Apologies if this is in the thread before i must have missed it..  Are you using the 8valve head, or the 16valve from the 110 (DW10 block) 

Having done some research it appears that lifters are an issue at high speed (collapsing) and also valve springs allow float and bounce of the valves at high pressures (intake).

what did you use/do to counteract this, if you used higher rate springs what were they from or where did you get them and what did you do about the lifters.. solid lifters?  

IF so in a PM would be great, if you dont want to share the information publically just yet.

[japie]

If I didn't want to share I wouldn't start posting about it, maybe some moderator can change the name of this threat?

We use the 8 valve head since our rulebook has that as max.
The Pipercam Ultimate Road camshaft.
30% stiffer valve springs, also 50% available. (https://www.facebook.com/hartmut.henkel)

The hydraulic studs aren't a big issue in general most car tuners, freaks and gods will say that above the 7K rpm hydraulics will fail but most of that knowledge is based on "followers" like used in VW and most engines and that is not the same system as PSA use.
Well to compensate for the loss due to higher spring pressure we modify the oil pressure regulator in the cylinder head.
It's an allen key placed left-bottom of the head when looking at the manifolds inside a spring and a ball, drill out the spring (without damaging) in a lathe with a 6.5mm and put M8 in it, put a headless M8 bold in the lathe and remodel the nose so it will fit inside the spring, screw it all together with anti-leak and start adjusting the pressure.
Original it is at 2bar and we boost it to 3bar so we compensate for the valve springs and a bit extra because we can... ;-)

[Jonny81191]

If I didn't want to share  I wouldn't start posting about it, maybe some moderator can change the name of this threat?

We use the 8 valve head since our rulebook has that as max.
The Pipercam Ultimate Road camshaft.
30% stiffer valve springs, also 50% available. (https://www.facebook.com/hartmut.henkel)

The hydraulic studs aren't a big issue in general most car tuners, freaks and gods will say that above the 7K rpm hydraulics will fail but most of that knowledge is based on "followers" like used in VW and most engines and that is not the same system as PSA use.
Well to compensate for the loss due to higher spring pressure we modify the oil pressure regulator in the cylinder head.
It's an allen key placed left-bottom of the head when looking at the manifolds inside a spring and a ball, drill out the spring (without damaging) in a lathe with a 6.5mm and put M8 in it, put a headless M8 bold in the lathe and remodel the nose so it will fit inside the spring, screw it all together with anti-leak and start adjusting the pressure.
Original it is at 2bar and we boost it to 3bar so we compensate for the valve springs and a bit extra because we can... ;-)

Very helpful stuff, I'll be in touch about valve springs soon no doubt! Any chance of some pictures of the modified pressure regulator?

[japie]

Very helpful stuff, I'll be in touch about valve springs soon no doubt! Any chance of some pictures of the modified pressure regulator?

No after modification you don't see the difference.

Main thing to know is that you have to make the spring stiffer so lets your engineering skills do the work... ;-)
I used a small allen key "headless" bolt M8x10 (don't know how they are called in English, it's all treated a little point at one side and the internal hexagon on the other, used in mechanics/agriculture) and in the lathe made the point look like the drilled out part. (only a few millimeters shorter since that is also the "ball stopper")

[Jonny81191]

Very helpful stuff, I'll be in touch about valve springs soon no doubt! Any chance of some pictures of the modified pressure regulator?

No after modification you don't see the difference.

Main thing to know is that you have to make the spring stiffer so lets your engineering skills do the work... ;-)
I used a small allen key "headless" bolt M8x10 (don't know how they are called in English, it's all treated a little point at one side and the internal hexagon on the other, used in mechanics/agriculture) and in the lathe made the point look like the drilled out part. (only a few millimeters shorter since that is also the "ball stopper")

I think I understand, I'll have a poke at my spare head and see how it goes.

[toseland]

Brilliant, I was looking at the timatr road cam from the piper website last night actually.. listed under the 206, 2.0hdi tho..

[HDi--Power]

Lifts aren't an issue onbthee anyway get the Eoi early enough and releive some back pressure and they won't collapse or cause issues, them collapsing is a symptom of another issue

[ADV_93]

You showed this forum up spectacularly

[Uberderv]

Main thing to know is that you have to make the spring stiffer so lets your engineering skills do the work... ;-)
I used a small allen key "headless" bolt M8x10 (don't know how they are called in English, it's all treated a little point at one side and the internal hexagon on the other, used in mechanics/agriculture) and in the lathe made the point look like the drilled out part. (only a few millimeters shorter since that is also the "ball stopper")

Grub screw?

 Awesome work BTW