Belt slapping wildly - belt tensioned - pics added

[ginge191]

As titled. Car wouldn't run after engine change. Me and max timed the car, was timed when on the floor, put in the car, now timing is off.


Any suggestions?

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Is it a matter of Cambelt off and start again?

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Edited, see lower posts for update as of 23/04/2013

[darrenjlobb]

There is some serious failing with this build lol... If the belt was in time when it was on the floor, then its still in time now, it cant magically "go out of time"...

What makes you think its 180 off? And what is off? pump and cam? or just one?

Again your post has not near enough info for anyone to help...

[cully]

maybe the engine's in upside down!?

[Ed Doe]

As above, you sure you've locked the pump/cam/crank off properly? If you changed pump you may have not timed that up right?

[darrenjlobb]

You say the timings "out" now, but I dont know what you mean, how do you know its out, you mean you have put bolts back in and they dont line up? If so, they wouldnt have on the floor, nothings changed...or you mean it just wont start so your blaming timing? Is the pump modified? Re post with lots of info, and someone will help...

[Dicky]

If it was running when you took it out, locked it off and just put a new belt on the timing couldn't have changed i'm confused

[ginge191]

How it happened I don't know, max times the belt the other day. It wasn't startin then, so went back today, checked the timing; cam was out by 180, fuel pump by 90.

As for failing, I wouldn't say so; never doing any of this before I'd say lessons learnt; it's impressive to do something right first time.

But anyway, took the engine up a bit on the crane, retimed, wired up, stared up 2nd time.

Alls good!

[Dave]

All of a sudden you have no compression...

[Ben Jay]

well done! almost as close to a fail as my first attempt at a bosch conversion last year!...almost

[cwspellowe]

Good job it wasn't a GTI6 or you'd be phoning Peugeot for 16 raccoon filters right about now

[strictly_perv]

I timed it. All locked up, cam belt tensioned, locks removed, manually cranked over 4 times, all smooth, timing re checked and holes still aligned.
I wasn't there today but its clearly jumped out of time...

[Piggy]

joy joy.

at least its sorted now...

all running now ginge?

[Matt]

Sounds like a Ginge fail

[ginge191]

Ok, revival of this.


Mark came round today, joined me mid sessions to change a fuel pump to see whether the 11mm was causing the timing to constantly slip out.

So the procedure went as follows;

locked the fly
cambelt tension off
cambelt off pulleys (cam and fuel pump)
fuel pump removed
new fuel pump on
locked cam
locked fuel pump
cambelt back on
tension on
remove locking key
manually crank a few times
recheck timing - all fine

Great, so we start her up, after a while of chugging away she lives. Fine.
LOT of white smoke, so we retard fully, still lots of white smoke, hmm maybe we're doing it the wrong way, so fully advance, still lots of white smoke...

Hmm, lets check the timing, 180 out AGAIN!!


PLEASE someone tell me what on earth is going on? this is the third time the timing has come out, twice on the 11mm, and this time, on the 9mm. Myself and mark, completely stumped.
Also, the belt has a lot of "slap/up and down movement" when the engines running, i've got a video. whether this has anything to do with it at all, im not sure.

[CJ_Derv]

So you think timings out due to white smoke on a cold startup!? IMO thats normal.especially for something thats not been run for a while

As for belt slap!? your spring is in your mount bracket which auto tensions the tensioner isnt it? And the end cap isnt siezed? And its the right belt aint it?

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When you say its 180 out please explain!? So what is 180 out? Pump? How can you tell? If she runs how can it be 180 out!? Im not familiar with an 11mm but just doesnt add up this?

[ginge191]

Sorry; let me try explain. It was running very rough, something wasn't right. We advanced/retarded each way and 2/3rds to try and get it steady. Nothing was working.

We checked the timing; locked the fly and the fuel pump and cam were 180* out I've the locking point for the can was the opposite side to where it should be.

Perhaps mark can explain it better

[Luhoer]

well I guess that would be because the cam and pump turn half the speed of the crankshaft..
so 1 more turn of the crankshaft and you should be able to lock cam and pump or am I wrong?

[CJ_Derv]

What fly are you using? Im sure there is more than one locking hole on my flywheel i may be wrong, try turning fly past the hole your locking it out on and try again

Otherwise try turn again and check

[Tom]

Might be a silly thing to say but yano the crank and cam spin at different speeds so if you turn the engine over by hand a few turns will the cam and pump then line up?

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Also did you pull the belt brave and tight over the pump pulley?

[darrenjlobb]

Hang on a minute, please tell me this isnt as lolworthy as im reading...

So you get it running, timed right, then decide to check timing, and come to the conclusion 3 times that its 180 degrees out...if its exactly 180 degrees out, then just turn the crank 1 more turn before you lock it?! Its 4 stroke..the crank goes round twice everytime time the cam / pump goes round once!

[CJ_Derv]

As ^^ he says

[Mattcheese31]

Hang on a minute, please tell me this isnt as lolworthy as im reading...

So you get it running, timed right, then decide to check timing, and come to the conclusion 3 times that its 180 degrees out...if its exactly 180 degrees out, then just turn the crank 1 more turn before you lock it?! Its 4 stroke..the crank goes round twice everytime time the cam / pump goes round once!

was just thinking that myself but having never done a belt thought i'd better stay quiet . .

[CJ_Derv]

Then go back to my previous post smoke jus cos cold and rough cos needs tuning right??

[ginge191]

I understand how the 4 stroke works. But, if this was the case, surely the timing points would stay the same as it was lined up with the flywheels (cranks) position?

What worries/confuses myself and mark is why the timing is no longer lining up to its corresponding locking points? There's not one locking point on the fly surely?

I continues to myth me with the engine struggling to keep itself on a decent idle, let alone revving.

Tomorrow, I'll get back and draw where the locking points are.

To add some clarification, Darren I didn't check the timing 3 times today; in total, I've had to retime it 3 times over a few weeks. Only twice today. Once obviously when the 'new' pump was out on, and again after we had ran it for about 10 minutes or so.

[Luhoer]

the timing points on the pump and on the cam can only line up once in 2 turns of the flywheel

[Harky]

Going back up to changing the fuel pump, its much easier to just lock the fuel pump pulley off with two intercooler bolts and leave it in place whilst you change the pump. Means you never have to worry about the timing belt and if you have problems they can be traced to the pump.

Not a lot of help to you now, but it will save you lots of time and effort in the future!

[Jonny81191]

I understand how the 4 stroke works. But, if this was the case, surely the timing points would stay the same as it was lined up with the flywheels (cranks) position?

What worries/confuses myself and mark is why the timing is no longer lining up to its corresponding locking points? There's not one locking point on the fly surely?

I continues to myth me with the engine struggling to keep itself on a decent idle, let alone revving.

Tomorrow, I'll get back and draw where the locking points are.

To add some clarification, Darren I didn't check the timing 3 times today; in total, I've had to retime it 3 times over a few weeks. Only twice today. Once obviously when the 'new' pump was out on, and again after we had ran it for about 10 minutes or so.

Sorry mate but it would appear that you DON'T understand it..

Just because it locks up on the fly, doesn't mean that the cam and the pump will lock up, the fly locks the crank up at TDC pistons 1&4, and as it's a 4 stroke engine, that means that the cam and pump are either "180 out" as you put it, or they should be in time. If they aren't, then you've cocked up somewhere. Go back to step 1, and retime it fully.

Also, If you're getting a lot of "belt slap", then you need to check you're getting the tension right. You should be able to twist the belt 90* at the mid point of it's longest run, conveniently this is right on the top on these engines, between the cam pulley and the pump.

Hope that helps.

[darrenjlobb]

[Jonny81191]

Belt looks a bit loose in those pictures there Darren, could that be the issue?

[Tom]

Professional lolworthy tech drawings!! Hahahahahahahahaha