Brakes - little/nothing there

[ginge191]

So, bled the brakes today, starting from farthest calliper at the rear, working towards the front.

The system was empty so took a whole getting fluid through. 

First bleed I got fluid to all calipers, 2nd bleed I made sure there was no air.

Took it out for a drive, but only braking efficiency was at the bottom of the pedal. 

Any ideas??

[Mattcheese31]

bleeding is rear NS, front OS, rear OS, front NS . . . is that what you did? . . .

[ginge191]

bleeding is rear NS, front OS, rear OS, front NS . . . is that what you did? . . .

MC and resevoir is OS, I went rear N/S, rear O/S, front N/S, from the O/S. 



I was under the impression it was bleeding farthest away from MC? 

Bleeding in a different order, would that have a big impact?

[welshpug]

osf and osr are furthest away from the mc on the two circuits as they go via the abs pump or tee pieces on bulkhead if non abs.

not that I've found it ever makes a blind bit of difference as long as you get all the air out.

[ginge191]

Hmmm, interesting.

Air in system would still have these symptoms?

[welshpug]

yep, or a failing master cylinder or a seized load compensator.

[ginge191]

yep, or a failing master cylinder or a seized load compensator.

Before the brakes were changed, the brakes were working fine.. 

I'll bleed again..

[Mattcheese31]

yep, or a failing master cylinder or a seized load compensator.

Before the brakes were changed, the brakes were working fine.. 

I'll bleed again..

right order this time?

[ginge191]

yep, or a failing master cylinder or a seized load compensator.

Before the brakes were changed, the brakes were working fine.. 

I'll bleed again..

right order this time?

Wouldn't be right if I didn't things the 'right' way

[zx_volcane]

Could still be air in the MC if you didn't bench bleed it.

You could crack off the unions at the MC and bleed through from there just to make sure no air is coming through.

How are the discs and pads you've put on, they brand new or 2nd hand? Might need bedding in too to get pedal feel up.

[mr_fish]

Could still be air in the MC if you didn't bench bleed it.

You could crack off the unions at the MC and bleed through from there just to make sure no air is coming through.

How are the discs and pads you've put on, they brand new or 2nd hand? Might need bedding in too to get pedal feel up.

My old discs pad and calipers, well.... i say old they very very good 2nd hand.

I think i wrote on the discs how they came off the car plus kept the pads in the relevant calipers.

I used one of these on the 309 when i replaced the lines



Worked well for first time using one.

[ginge191]

Could still be air in the MC if you didn't bench bleed it.

You could crack off the unions at the MC and bleed through from there just to make sure no air is coming through.

How are the discs and pads you've put on, they brand new or 2nd hand? Might need bedding in too to get pedal feel up.

My old discs pad and calipers, well.... i say old they very very good 2nd hand.

I think i wrote on the discs how they came off the car plus kept the pads in the relevant calipers.

I used one of these on the 309 when i replaced the lines



Worked well for first time using one.

Yeh, as said ther above.

How would I go about bleeding from the MC, crack off unions and pump as usual? And let the brake fluid dribble out?

[Paul_13]

I found on base model brake setups to have the rear drums adjusted properly and not taking up the slack on the handbrake made the brake loads better

[ginge191]

I found on base model brake setups to have the rear drums adjusted properly and not taking up the slack on the handbrake made the brake loads better

Sorry, confused.

How doesn't the handbrake affect the rear brake cylinders? How do you mean, adjust properly

[Paul_13]

Use the adjuster through the drum brake to adjust the drums, not just tighten the hand brake to take up the slack.

I found the pedal is firmer and more responsive, doing it the other way I found the pedal was nearer the floor and brakes were crap

---

This isn't to do with bleeding it by the way, just a tip

[ginge191]

Use the adjuster through the drum brake to adjust the drums, not just tighten the hand brake to take up the slack.

I found the pedal is firmer and more responsive, doing it the other way I found the pedal was nearer the floor and brakes were crap

---

This isn't to do with bleeding it by the way, just a tip

AH ok! 

That's fine, shall look into that! 

Obtained this today. Going hard on these brakes next week! 


   

[Poodle]

Yeah if you haven't adjusted the drums properly the brakes will be shit, slacken the handbrake cable off, adjust them up until just before they bind on and try again. If you let the MC go dry at any point it may have buggered the seals. Is this on your 205?

[ginge191]

Yeah if you haven't adjusted the drums properly the brakes will be shit, slacken the handbrake cable off, adjust them up until just before they bind on and try again. If you let the MC go dry at any point it may have buggered the seals. Is this on your 205?

Yeh, on the 205. When I removed the lines , I kept them at reservoir height as to not drain the system fully.

[Poodle]

I'd have a quick look at a youtube vid on adjusting drum brakes properly if this is news to you, we see lots of drum brakes at work that have been ruined by home mechanics. Problem is if you keep adjusting them on the cable it can wear the shoes unevenly and over extend the wheel cylinders causing the seals to pop (which is what i think has happened if your pedal is going to the floor constantly). Hopefully the lack of adjustment just means you've now got a very small contact patch and the cylinders are having to extend a lot more to get contact. They also won't have decent leverage from the wheel cylinders if the adjuster isn't braced up against them properly. Did you at least have the drums off and clean up the shoe assembly? I would recommend cleaning the lip off the inside of the drums while you have them off, make it a lot easier to remove them next time. Ideally use a die grinder/dremel type thing, but it can be done carefully with a grinder if you're very careful, and i mean careful. I feel as though i should repeat careful, major potential to go wrong if you're not. Careful that is.

Other questions if the drums are all good: Are you absolutely sure the mc didn't go dry? Does the pedal pump up, or does it feel shit permanently? Is the bias valve DEFINITELY free and working as you bounce on the suspension? Are you sure the brake lines didn't get crimped anywhere when you bent them up?

[ginge191]

Hi poodle; think there's been confusion somewhere along the lines, The handbrake is absolutely fine , it's the brake pedal which has nothing until the floor. Assuming there's air at the top of the brake system, job today is to bleed from MC end, then pressurise system and bleed from nipples.
When bleeding before, the handbrake wasn't raised/applied

The brake lines which were bent/held up were the flexy lines on the front, and held up with string, so I can see there's no kinks in these lines ,and, I don't think there's a bias valve on this ... I'll have a another check later and return with some news.

[zx_volcane]

Hi poodle; think there's been confusion somewhere along the lines, The handbrake is absolutely fine , it's the brake pedal which has nothing until the floor. Assuming there's air at the top of the brake system, job today is to bleed from MC end, then pressurise system and bleed from nipples.
When bleeding before, the handbrake wasn't raised/applied

The brake lines which were bent/held up were the flexy lines on the front, and held up with string, so I can see there's no kinks in these lines ,and, I don't think there's a bias valve on this ... I'll have a another check later and return with some news.

no confusion on drums - if handbrake mech isn't adjusted properly, then the hydraulic cylinder has to move a lot more to move the sames shoes - hence long pedal travel till bite

[ginge191]

Hi poodle; think there's been confusion somewhere along the lines, The handbrake is absolutely fine , it's the brake pedal which has nothing until the floor. Assuming there's air at the top of the brake system, job today is to bleed from MC end, then pressurise system and bleed from nipples.
When bleeding before, the handbrake wasn't raised/applied

The brake lines which were bent/held up were the flexy lines on the front, and held up with string, so I can see there's no kinks in these lines ,and, I don't think there's a bias valve on this ... I'll have a another check later and return with some news.

no confusion on drums - if handbrake mech isn't adjusted properly, then the hydraulic cylinder has to move a lot more to move the sames shoes - hence long pedal travel till bite

Now I'm really confused as the rears haven't been adjusted/touched at all. No handbrake adjustment , nothing.

I'm only bleeding the system. I'll turn to YouTube, see if it clarifies anything for me..

[Anton]

Hence why everyone is saying you need to adjust the drums. As it does affect it

[ginge191]

After watching numerous videos on 'bleeding drum brakes' I'm still none the wiser

I do apologise..

[zx_volcane]

Its about shoe adjustment, you want them as close to the drum as possible without binding - regardless if actuated by mech handbrake cable or hydraulic piston.

Just something to check anyway as will give you long pedal travel before bite.


Other things that give crap pedal that may be your issue based on info given >

2nd hand discs n pads that need bedding in.

air in system, particularly MC if has been run dry - they can be a total witch to bleed on car.

[welshpug]

Its about shoe adjustment, you want them as close to the drum as possible without binding - regardless if actuated by mech handbrake cable or hydraulic piston.

actually it does matter how its done, never by the cables, always by the adjusters.

[zx_volcane]

Its about shoe adjustment, you want them as close to the drum as possible without binding - regardless if actuated by mech handbrake cable or hydraulic piston.

actually it does matter how its done, never by the cables, always by the adjusters.

yes I know, but saying that its the shoe adjustment that is the issue, rather than anything to do with them being moved by cable or by hydraulic that is the issue - trying to lessen the confusion here.

[Mattcheese31]

Get some copper slip worked into the threads on the adjusters, they can get stiff and very awkward otherwise

[Matt-Rallye]

Simpler solution...



Take it too a garage, bend over, drop kegs and mentally prep yourself for penetration.

[Poodle]

We're talking about adjusting, not bleeding. The other option is to bring it to me one day/evening and i'll go through it with you down at the unit. The downside being you'll have to drive it here in it's current condition which is far from ideal...

Chances are the issue you've got is being caused by air in the mc or somewhere else in the system, as zxvolcane says.