Towing...B+E clarification...Advice

[Sambarker]

Ok so wondering if anyone can add any clarification to the old "what you can and can't tow" saga

I don't have B+E on my licence, and would prefer not to have to go the expense of it, depending on what is actually considered the law

A few weeks ago I got pulled by North Yorkshire police for towing a citroen Xsara down the motorway with a Ford Kuga using a A Frame

I know the legalities of an A frame for recovery only, and the fact it wasn't braked etc, but the policeman told me I wasn't legally allowed to tow that much weight without the B+E entitlement and that I would be reported for the offence

I did not argue at the time but did some research when I got home, and came to the conclusion that as long as whatever you are towing falls within the permitted weight for the vehicle you are using, and this total does not exceed 3500kg, then I am ok with my B only entitlement, and that the B+E entitlement would enable me to tow over the 3500kg limit?

The fact that is has been over 4 weeks and I have had now letter regarding any penalties for the offence of towing without an appropriate licence, also suggests to me I wasn't breaking the law in terms of weights, ignoring the fact I was using an A frame

Anyway my concerns are now that I have purchased a rather tasty ifor williams beavertailed car transporter which weighs around 750kg. My Kuga weighs around 1700kg. So I am collecting a car that weighs less than a tonne at the weekend, I'm Ok to tow the trailer down unlaiden, but once I put the car on and the total weigh is in the region of 3400kg, am I towing illegally or do I need to let my dad drive back who passed his test before 1997 and has the B+E entitlement automatically?

Any advice appreciated preferably from experience/solid facts/documented links!

[welshpug]

you need to consider the mam of the car and the mam of the trailer, technically if you have a 2400 kg gross trailer, you are illrgal as soon as you hitch up even when empty, as it is both over the gtw of the tow vehicle and over the 3500kg, when fully laden.


my bmw weighs around 1450, its gvw is 2000kg, therefore I have 1500 kg allowance, 400 ish fot a trailer, 1100 for my zx and a few spare for my 205, so I need a trailer with a mam of 1500kg or so.

car is plated to 1800, but without b+e I cant tow the 3800kg gtw.

[jammapic]

Hi mate,

You are partially right.

On your licence, you can tow a train weight of up to 3500kg. Your Kuga at 1700kg leaves 1800kg of weight available. However, the weight of the towed items (i.e. trailer plus load) must not exceed the towing capacity of the towing vehicle.

So, assuming your Kuga can tow it's kerbweight of 1700kg, you can tow a trailer + load of 1700kg and still be under the train weight limit of 3500kg.

Biggest issue however, is the plated weight, or MAM (max allowable mass) of the trailer. Normally, the rozzers will do you if your towing vehicle cannot tow the MAM of the trailer.

So, if you tow a trailer which weighs 750kg, I'd bet my bottom dollar the MAM is over 2000kg. Straight away, the counts you out in terms of being able to pull it with the Kuga.

I tend to tow with a single axle car trailer which weighs in at 350kg, and has a MAM of 1400kg. My track car weighs 950kg, so 350kg + 950kg = 1300kg, less than the MAM, and more importantly, less than the max permissible of the Astra, which is 1400kg.

If you were being really cheeky, you could probably get away with towing a trailer with a higher MAM, and request you go to a weighbridge to get the train / load weighed... I know someone who did this, and was ok.

It's a bit of a minefield....

Hope that helps,

JP

[Sambarker]

Kuga can tow 2100kg

[THE_Liam]

Just to add a slight extra complication to this, as I'm looking at buying a caravan, the MAM of the trailer (MTPLM for a caravan) also has to be less than the cars UNLADEN weight. For example I looked at a caravan today that was 980kg unladen with an MTPLM of 1200kg, more than the Benz's unladen weight of 1170kg, so I can't legally tow that.

[Sambarker]

I'll just stick L plates on the front and back and get my grandma to come with me, she can teach me as she would be legally allowed to tow. Nice day out for her

[Jonny81191]

Taken directly from the gov.uk website: Print it off and put in your glovebox, the traffic police are USELESS at knowing the law here..

"Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

:drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
:tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test."

Fairy simple IMHO

[Ruan]

Taken from the directgov website.

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

So basically - the first point basically says if you drive a very heavy vehicle (3300kg say) and it can tow a braked weight of 1000kg say - you are only allowed to stick 750kg behind it - i.e. you're over the 3500kg limit putting anything on the back. This is to give SOME leniency for when you have a heavy vehicle and the 3500kg maximum basically means you could only tow 100kg - which is silly.

The second point is what applies to us - you can tow a trailer over 750kg as long as the TOTAL weight of the vehicle, trailer and what's in the trailer is less than 3500kg.

Your Kuga (1700) + Tasty Ifor Williams(750) = 2450KG

3500KG Maximum allowed - 2450KG = 1050KG

I.E. you have a capacity of 1050KG you can stick in the trailer.

However you need to make sure the 1050KG+750KG =1800KG Trailer is less than the maximum towing weight of the Kuga. Which seemingly it is.

That's how I understand it - don't blame me when the 5-0 nail yo' ass.

WRONG!

[Ruan]

EDIT:

Maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

Right - I've looked further, I'm talking out my ass.

So infact, this depends on the GVW of the Kuga. Which apparently is 2250KG - in which case you are definitely not allowed to tow that.

Kuga GVW (2250) + Tasty Ifor Williams (750) = 3000KG

You can stick 500kg on the trailer.

[jammapic]

Ruan, it depends on the MAM of the Tasty Ifor Williams trailer. If it's got a MAM of 2000kg for example, you can't even hook it up as:

Kuga GVW 2250 + Tasty Ifor Williams MAM 2000 (for arguments sake) = 4250kg... too much for a 3500kg train weight allowance.

[Niall]

EDIT:

Maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

Right - I've looked further, I'm talking out my ass.

So infact, this depends on the GVW of the Kuga. Which apparently is 2250KG - in which case you are definitely not allowed to tow that.

Kuga GVW (2250) + Tasty Ifor Williams (750) = 3000KG

You can stick 500kg on the trailer.

Ruan the GVW of the Kuga isn't 2250. Its towing capacity is 2250 (On a braked trailer).
so:
Car: 1540
Tasty trailer:750
=2290 leaving 1210kg trailer load (assuming this is below the trailer MAM)

Edit: figures from some towing website by the way so may not be correct but you get the idea

[Ruan]

Yep, it's worse than even I expected...

Essentially you can't tow anything.

[THE_Liam]

You can mate, but for most of us, it's a small caravan, a small rubbish trailer, motorbike trailer. Cars on trailers are pretty much out

Sam, do what Danny's done, get a transporter. Far easier to drive as well.

[Danny2009]

Recovery truck ftw

I looked at getting a tsar trailor and a 4x4 to tow it but can't tow shit

Trailers are Easier to nick PITFA to store move reverse

Jump in truck off I go got winch for non runners/flat battery's work lights for when it's late far easier

[miles]

It's like Drink driving, if you have the keys on you in the car you can be done, so as said if your MAM is over the limit its the 'intention of' even if you are not

[Sambarker]

Well I'm pretty sure the trailer I've bought can carry 3500kg so I'm pretty much f*cked, good job I've got my dad coming with me then. Looks like investing in some lessons for B+E, at least then it's over and done with for the next 50 yeara

[welshpug]

even if you have a towing licence that trailer is illegal behind a kuga.

[toseland]

To clarify the point.. VOSA suggests that once an A frame is attached to a vehicle, it becomes a trailer for all intents and purposes. and as such should conform to MAM/Weight regulations and braking regulations, ie it is not a car on a trailer. the towed car BECOMES the trailer itself and weighs however much is appropriate..


i am assuming they have charged you and you have the right to a court appearance if so necessary...

now consider this carefully.. you have the right to go to court regarding this and it can be appropriately argued that you were not exceeding VOSA's recommended 3500kg total train weight, OR the plated towing limit of the ford kuga.. and hence not breaking the law.

were brake lights used? if so no problem

was the towing vehicle displaying appropriate numberplates on the back of the xzara? if so no problem..

was the Xzara disabled at the time of towing (battery unconnected and/or removed), if so no problem, but a tiny issue

i would suggest having a look at hte weights..

Kuga can tow 2100kg, weight of the car = ???

total train weight exceeding 3500? if not, then your licence is valid and the police man is wrong according to VOSA..

[Sambarker]

To clarify the point.. VOSA suggests that once an A frame is attached to a vehicle, it becomes a trailer for all intents and purposes. and as such should conform to MAM/Weight regulations and braking regulations, ie it is not a car on a trailer. the towed car BECOMES the trailer itself and weighs however much is appropriate..


i am assuming they have charged you and you have the right to a court appearance if so necessary...

now consider this carefully.. you have the right to go to court regarding this and it can be appropriately argued that you were not exceeding VOSA's recommended 3500kg total train weight, OR the plated towing limit of the ford kuga.. and hence not breaking the law.

were brake lights used? if so no problem

was the towing vehicle displaying appropriate numberplates on the back of the xzara? if so no problem..

was the Xzara disabled at the time of towing (battery unconnected and/or removed), if so no problem, but a tiny issue

i would suggest having a look at hte weights..

Kuga can tow 2100kg, weight of the car = ???

total train weight exceeding 3500? if not, then your licence is valid and the police man is wrong according to VOSA..

I haven't had anything with regards to any possible penalties, I presume enough time has now passed so hopefully shouldn't expect anything

---

even if you have a towing licence that trailer is illegal behind a kuga.

I haven't picked the trailer up yet, they were figures for it off the interweb. If it's been downplated then I will be ok, if not will probably downplate it to 2000kg

[welshpug]

thats still too much.

its the gvw of the tow vehicle you need to consider, not kerb weight, so you need a far smaller trailer.

[C2K]

I'm sure the resident copper will advise, but iirc it's up to 6 months from the date of the offence.

[nominous]

Even if I was drunk I wouldn't be able to follow this....

Jesus, do they make it as confusing as possible on purpose??

Now I'm old enough to have B+E automatically.
So what does that mean for me if I want to tow a trailer with car on it ?

Also if it's a home made trailer it's likely not going to have a MAM plate on it.
Whats the deal then ?

[Sambarker]

thats still too much.

its the gvw of the tow vehicle you need to consider, not kerb weight, so you need a far smaller trailer.

Kuga can tow 2100kg?

[welshpug]

yeah, so the biggest trailer someone with b+e can use is a 2100 mam, not your 3500 mam trailer, and on your licence not even 1500 as I bet the gvw of the kuga is near 2000kg

[Sambarker]

yeah, so the biggest trailer someone with b+e can use is a 2100 mam, not your 3500 mam trailer, and on your licence not even 1500 as I bet the gvw of the kuga is near 2000kg

But if I downplate the mam of the trailer to 2000kg then it will be within the 2100kg the kuga can tow

Kuga gvw is 1700kg

[welshpug]

yes, but without b+e youre limited to 1800, but actually 1700 as you shouldnt be over the weight of the tow vehicle, downplating a 750kg trailer is a waste, sell it and get a lighter one!

[THE_Liam]

yeah, so the biggest trailer someone with b+e can use is a 2100 mam, not your 3500 mam trailer, and on your licence not even 1500 as I bet the gvw of the kuga is near 2000kg

But if I downplate the mam of the trailer to 2000kg then it will be within the 2100kg the kuga can tow

Kuga gvw is 1700kg

Problem then mate is that your gross train weight is 3700kg, which makes it too heavy for your license.

[Mike]

https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules/y

Found this.. It may help you.
I had this problem in the past and i found like a bubble chart showing everything about.
Unfortunately i cant find it now :/

[Sambarker]

As I've said ill just do the test no point having to tip toe around stupid laws for the rest of my life not exactly going to stop messing about with cars anytime soon

[THE_Liam]

I'm considering doing it myself to be honest. Any way you can wangle it through work?