307 1.6HDI not power to lift pump

[DeeTurbo]

Hi,

My dads 307 SW 1.6 HDI isn't starting and he has found that there is no power to the lift pump.

I looked on servicebox and it looks like there is no "brown relay" like there is on my 2.0 HDI.

He has checked the fuses and other relays, all seem ok. 

I'll get PP2k on it this weekend but what is it likely to be the issue?

[Toms306]

Lift pump on a 1.6 HDi!? There isn't one afaik, or at least there isn't on the Focus with the same engine.

[Jimbo]

Sure theres no lift pump as tom says, normally a hand primer near the fuel filter

[DeeTurbo]

I was think that made sense as there is a hand primer but in servicebox it does show a version with a lift pump.

I've asked for the vin so I can check servicebox with that.

[Toms306]

They fit hand primers on the PSA ones? Why didn't Ford bother with that!

[Jimbo]

Idont know tom but i spend ages trying to get the fords running after a filter change at work sometimes when the fuel drains back the tank

[Toms306]

Yeah it's daft, my hand primer broke when I changed the filter as well. Ended up filling the filter with a funnel and cranking for ages to get it started...then it still kept trying to die so held it at 3k for a bit cold. Not something I want to repeat. Its not even just filter changes though, running out of fuel can't be uncommon.

[bashbarnard]

Idont know tom but i spend ages trying to get the fords running after a filter change at work sometimes when the fuel drains back the tank

Un do the red fuel connector on fords. Put a vaccum bleeder on there and crank while doing it. Otherwise it doesnt pull through. Bloody stupid things.

[Paul_13]

^ had that on a Mondeo 2.0tdci. Bloody infuriating

[bashbarnard]

^ had that on a Mondeo 2.0tdci. Bloody infuriating

The mondeos are slightly different need to suck the centre one on the fuel filter up.

[Poodle]

I haven't ever had to crank a 1.6 to get it bled...? The 2.0s are a right lady garden, have no end of problems getting them started after a filter change, usually end up dragging them up the road

Back on topic, i've yet to see a 1.6hdi with a lift pump, in any vehicle.

[welshpug]

sniff of ether and a jump pack is all ive ever done if something wont start after a filter change, ALWAYS fill the filter with fuel, with the trucks I used to work on we kept a jerry can to do this as many had twin filters that took a whole litre each.

[DeeTurbo]

Yep, no tank pump. Just checked servicebox with his vin.

He says it'll start if pumps the hand pump, does the mean there might be an air leak between the hand pump and high pressure pump?

Also the ESP light is now on, what does this light mean?

[Toms306]

Means the ESP isn't working. But seriously, it's essentially just an ABS system with a turn angle sensor, very little than can be wrong with that. Have you got planet to test it?

When was the fuel filter last changed? Could be getting blocked if it works after priming? Otherwise an air leak sounds likely yeah.

[DeeTurbo]

Any idea where the turn angle sensor is?

---

The fuel filter had been changed on the last service not so long ago.

[Poodle]

The esp light is probably on because the battery is going flat from trying to start it. If it starts with him pumping the primer it'll be an air leak somewhere. I'd be checking the connections around the filter if that was changed recently, sometimes they can be a pain to clip on fully.

[happypug]

I haven't ever had to crank a 1.6 to get it bled...? The 2.0s are a right lady garden, have no end of problems getting them started after a filter change, usually end up dragging them up the road

Back on topic, i've yet to see a 1.6hdi with a lift pump, in any vehicle.

Hey mate.   It`s easy to prime a 2.0 hdi after new filter.  You need to turn the ignition key on/off for 6 times, by then filter will be full of fuel. No need to drag vehicle..

[DeeTurbo]

I haven't ever had to crank a 1.6 to get it bled...? The 2.0s are a right lady garden, have no end of problems getting them started after a filter change, usually end up dragging them up the road

Back on topic, i've yet to see a 1.6hdi with a lift pump, in any vehicle.

Hey mate.   It`s easy to prime a 2.0 hdi after new filter.  You need to turn the ignition key on/off for 6 times, by then filter will be full of fuel. No need to drag vehicle..

He's on about the 2.0 ford motors as there is no pump in the tank to prime the system.

[Poodle]

Lol yeah, that's for vehicles with a lift pump. The 2.0 16v goes in a whole range of vehicles, for some reason a few are a lot worse to bleed up than others, although none of them self-bleed. Some of the new volvos and mondeos (iirc) have the filter under the boot/rear seats and fuel drains back to there from the engine bay. No primer, no lift pump and the siemens fuel system on them doesn't seem to be capable of drawing fuel below about 2500rpm lol, chronic pita.

[Toms306]

Why have they done away lift pumps in newer diesels? Can they not supply enough fuel or is it a cost cutting thing?

[DeeTurbo]

Probably a cost, efficiently and weight thing.

[Toms306]

They don't weigh much though and it seems odd that they cause servicing problems (adding time to service schedule, losing the dealers money) and still leave them out.

[bashbarnard]

They don't weigh much though and it seems odd that they cause servicing problems (adding time to service schedule, losing the dealers money) and still leave them out.

Why put one in if its not needed? I never understood why they bothered if you can make a pump that drags up the fuel and compressors it. In my eyes its a good idea. I think the pd engines are over pumped! Lift pump to feed the tandem pump to feed the injectors that then compress it more. All manufacturers will have a reason for doing it a certain way.

[Toms306]

But it is needed... For fuel filter changes and running out of fuel if nothing else. Must put less strain on the HP pump as well if there's already some pressure supplied to it?

If you are right though and they just think they don't need it...why don't they fit hand primers to the Fords? You do need one or the other really lol. Ford expect you to run out at some point because they give you the easyfuel funnel as standard...which is completely pointless unless you happen to keep a hand primer in the car as well...

[DeeTurbo]

Cost savings. Ford mechanics probably use a pump on the return lime to prime.

[Toms306]

I did some work experience at Ford...they have the same problems priming after filter changes as everyone else... Brake cleaner was the preferred method to get them started there.

[Poodle]

We use a vacuum bleeder on the pump feed, only takes a minute or so, at home i use a hand primer that doesn't take much longer. Worth buying a spare to use like that if you service them often, made life so much easier.

[Toms306]

I'll keep one in the car when I eventually get another, terrified of running out of fuel!

[pug306driver]

A mate has a merc van, with mech fuel system rather than anything electrical/electronic, a removable screen filter before the main paper filter, with a lift pump down on the engine, the filters being high at the top of the engine.

Anyways the owner changed the paper filter and cleaned the screen filter, and the van refused to start. The AA spent 4 hours looking etc and it still didn't start.

Like a fool, I had a look, paper filter bone dry, and feed pipe appeared ok, bubble heard when he blew down the feed pipe. Engine driven lift pump seemed to work, so "wiggling the old brittle pipes" one broke clean off!!! shit!!!!!

Anyways looking at the broken pipe, and the "break marks and dirt" etc, this pipe must have been "leaking in air" for some time, hence the prior difficulty in starting and dieing on long hills, as very steep hill by the owners house, where he used to park the van. Big clue there as I suspected low fuel or poor lift pump performance, air leak etc.

New pipe purchased and fitted, engine cranked for 30 seconds ( in stages ) and the beast burst into life!

Perhaps a bladder type inline fuel primer should be fitted to the "troublesome in bleeding" bleeding priming   systems.