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+--- Thread: 11mm bosh pump questions (/showthread.php?tid=9244)
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RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Ruan - 26-12-2012
(26-12-2012, 05:01 PM)Dicky Wrote: Pointless getting an 11mm pump, it doesn't really give any advantages unless you're running 200+bhp.
JP ran 209bhp on a 9mm pump which worked fine.
Oh my literal god...
No one understands this...
People need to look into injection pumps more and understand WHY we put 11mm pumps on cars... There are a few reasons why, stop quoting crap from posts and just claiming it as your own because you once heard it on a forum unless you actually know what you're on about...
I can guarantee you will NOT make 209hp on a 100% stock 9mm pump... Not even 179hp barely....
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Jonny81191 - 26-12-2012
Ruan!
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Dicky - 26-12-2012
(26-12-2012, 08:05 PM)Ruan Wrote:Umm... okay(26-12-2012, 05:01 PM)Dicky Wrote: Pointless getting an 11mm pump, it doesn't really give any advantages unless you're running 200+bhp.
JP ran 209bhp on a 9mm pump which worked fine.
Oh my literal god...
No one understands this...
People need to look into injection pumps more and understand WHY we put 11mm pumps on cars... There are a few reasons why, stop quoting crap from posts and just claiming it as your own because you once heard it on a forum unless you actually know what you're on about...
I can guarantee you will NOT make 209hp on a 100% stock 9mm pump... Not even 179hp barely....
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Ruan - 26-12-2012
Maybe I'm on the blob, but it's gotten boring hearing the same stuff...
There's multiple reasons why you might want an 11mm OVER a 9mm pump...
With injection pumps there's essentially TWO ways of increasing the injection amount, lengthen the injection duratiion (i.e. open the collar more...) or inject more fuel in a given duration... When you get to the point where you're spinning the engine at 5000rpm, a 9mm plunger simply cannot provide SHORT injection lengths, an 11mm pump will do this MUCH better, reducing exhaust gas temperatures and the engine will rev and respond MUCH better etc... The biggest disadvantage is the fact that it does play havoc with the timing system...
HOWEVER, keeping a 9mm pump also means that you are massively restricted by the amount of fuel you can run due to other parts inside the pump, you cannot just assume you can keep winding the max fuel screw further and further, because at the end of the day, the amount the throttle moves will only allow for so much fuel, even if you carry on winding the max fuel screw, since a certain part of the pump doesn't move enough... I'll leave you figure out what it is, but it's not easy to simply change this part for a "better" one, it's trial and error OR modifying said part...
People just seem to think there's NO thought gone into why we fit 11mm heads and it's just an easy option and it blows chronic coal etc... It's simply not the case, go have a look at my dyno video and there's NO smoke whatsoever at 175HP+...
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Dicky - 26-12-2012
(26-12-2012, 09:02 PM)Ruan Wrote: Maybe I'm on the blob, but it's gotten boring hearing the same stuff...Okay now I've read what the actual advantages are I understand it now, where as what I have read (Unless I'm misunderstanding what I saw) is completely different to that.
There's multiple reasons why you might want an 11mm OVER a 9mm pump...
With injection pumps there's essentially TWO ways of increasing the injection amount, lengthen the injection duratiion (i.e. open the collar more...) or inject more fuel in a given duration... When you get to the point where you're spinning the engine at 5000rpm, a 9mm plunger simply cannot provide SHORT injection lengths, an 11mm pump will do this MUCH better, reducing exhaust gas temperatures and the engine will rev and respond MUCH better etc... The biggest disadvantage is the fact that it does play havoc with the timing system...
HOWEVER, keeping a 9mm pump also means that you are massively restricted by the amount of fuel you can run due to other parts inside the pump, you cannot just assume you can keep winding the max fuel screw further and further, because at the end of the day, the amount the throttle moves will only allow for so much fuel, even if you carry on winding the max fuel screw, since a certain part of the pump doesn't move enough... I'll leave you figure out what it is, but it's not easy to simply change this part for a "better" one, it's trial and error OR modifying said part...
People just seem to think there's NO thought gone into why we fit 11mm heads and it's just an easy option and it blows chronic coal etc... It's simply not the case, go have a look at my dyno video and there's NO smoke whatsoever at 175HP+...
I was in the middle of PMing you and asking the advantages and knowing more about the capabilities of each pump.
Sorry for the thread spam and ignore what I posted
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Ruan - 26-12-2012
Just winds me up people wanking over 9mm pumps and then people fitting 9mms and then wondering why they're crap...
JPs 209HP he completely admitted was absolutely ON THE LIMIT of the pump and turbo... You wouldn't want to run it like that for any time, injection length too long, turbo getting raped, he didn't know EGTs but I wouldn't have liked to have known, guaranteed 1000*C+ though...
If you want to retain "stock" driveability, fair enough, stick with 9mm and they're good for 160-170HP ish, but the power won't be at 5k... But lets face it, "STOCK" driveability is pretty wank, you want the car to feel a bit more alive, more rash, more responsive, more eager... Hence 11mms will ALWAYS be better if you're actually pushing an engine...
Look at the 1Z TDis, they run a 10/11mm as STOCK on a 90hp engine to reduce the injection duration on an OEM engine... They go 12mm+ for high power, just to keep durations and EGTs down without slapping on loads of advance to compensate.
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Dicky - 26-12-2012
(26-12-2012, 09:15 PM)Ruan Wrote: Just winds me up people wanking over 9mm pumps and then people fitting 9mms and then wondering why they're crap...Ah I see, think I'll have to do some more 11mm reading and get rid of my 9mm when I finish drilling the bolts out and retiming it.
JPs 209HP he completely admitted was absolutely ON THE LIMIT of the pump and turbo... You wouldn't want to run it like that for any time, injection length too long, turbo getting raped, he didn't know EGTs but I wouldn't have liked to have known, guaranteed 1000*C+ though...
If you want to retain "stock" driveability, fair enough, stick with 9mm and they're good for 160-170HP ish, but the power won't be at 5k... But lets face it, "STOCK" driveability is pretty wank, you want the car to feel a bit more alive, more rash, more responsive, more eager... Hence 11mms will ALWAYS be better if you're actually pushing an engine...
Look at the 1Z TDis, they run a 10/11mm as STOCK on a 90hp engine to reduce the injection duration on an OEM engine... They go 12mm+ for high power, just to keep durations and EGTs down without slapping on loads of advance to compensate.
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Piggy - 26-12-2012
Ruan owning a thread again... he is like superpug
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Chris_90 - 26-12-2012
Some very good info there ruan so what about an 11mm pump on a stock engine/stage 1 tune?
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Jonny81191 - 26-12-2012
(26-12-2012, 09:15 PM)Ruan Wrote: Just winds me up people wanking over 9mm pumps and then people fitting 9mms and then wondering why they're crap...
In fairness dude, we're talking about a stock engine here..
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - ozonehostile - 27-12-2012
just following this up from the other day about scrapyard pump prices, my local does bosch with all lines and injectors for £90.
i couldnt find a car with a bosch at the biggest scrappy in hereford so didnt ask....
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Piggy - 27-12-2012
hereford scrappy was crap...proper arogant, rude and expensive
(26-12-2012, 09:33 PM)Chris_90 Wrote: Some very good info there ruan so what about an 11mm pump on a stock engine/stage 1 tune?
has ruan not extensively answered this already?!?!?!?!
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - Chris_90 - 28-12-2012
(27-12-2012, 09:53 PM)Piggy1987 Wrote: hereford scrappy was crap...proper arogant, rude and expensive
(26-12-2012, 09:33 PM)Chris_90 Wrote: Some very good info there ruan so what about an 11mm pump on a stock engine/stage 1 tune?
has ruan not extensively answered this already?!?!?!?!
I was asking ruan cos he seems very good with info!! But never mind sorted now deiced against it and sorted a normal pump out for in a couple of weeks.
RE: 11mm bosh pump questions - con67 - 28-12-2012
When people talk about 11s theyre generally talking about transit ones which according to a document buried in esi are the wrong shape at the top of the piston for idi. Mine smoked at mot time even with the thing hardly idling and the cable at half travel. The car barely moved otr and still slightly smoked at no load. Luckily it was a visual test here in ni and I got to rev it!!! I will post pics of the tranny and a proper idi 11mm piston sometime but im not even looking through my stash of parts until I get a new 306! A modded 9mm is the way forward imho and I'm real fookin sorry I didnt dyno the car with the 9mm modded, standard 9 but screwed to the last it made 156hp, smokey 11 made 173 but the modded nine felt a bit quicker and faaaaaaaaaar 'free-er' revving than the 11, good pull to nearly 6k rpm and to top it off virtually smoke free.