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+--- Thread: Camber spacer rings ?? (/showthread.php?tid=17028)
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 07:02 PM)Bender Wrote: Im only asking, I wont ever fit any and you cant buy them anyways for the 306. Im more intrigued about it all, I understand machining stub axle holes is the best way and top mounts for the struts etc.
Surely vag cars etc would still have issues with them, dont know if their suspension is independant like the 6 but surely it wont matter ?
GTI6 suspension isn't independent.
Camber kits will work fine on any car that will take them, they just put extra load on the bearings that they weren't designed for, so lifespan is shortened.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Niall - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 07:02 PM)Bender Wrote: Im only asking, I wont ever fit any and you cant buy them anyways for the 306. Im more intrigued about it all, I understand machining stub axle holes is the best way and top mounts for the struts etc.
Surely vag cars etc would still have issues with them, dont know if their suspension is independant like the 6 but surely it wont matter ?
As said, it all depends on how the suspension is designed, independent or not. On most cars, the easiest way to get front camber is adjustable top mounts. Clios use "wedges" in the rear hubs to give camber but then you might as well change wheel bearings every time you fill up with fuel!
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 07:07 PM)cwspellowe Wrote: GTI6 suspension isn't independent.
Yes it is.
And no, camber shims won't work on a 306 because there is nowhere to put them, all suspension is designed differently....
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 07:33 PM)Rippthrough Wrote:(04-09-2013, 07:07 PM)cwspellowe Wrote: GTI6 suspension isn't independent.
Yes it is.
Not fully it's not
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 07:35 PM)cwspellowe Wrote: Not fully it's not
Yes it is.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
Oh really? So one wheel can move in a vertical plane without affecting the other?
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
Yes...independence is a measure of the interconnection of the structural members, take the spring off, take the arb out, move one side up.
Observe as nothing else moves.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
*sigh*
A technicality on words.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
There is no technicality, it IS an independent system.
You can make it less kinematically independent by adding bigger and bigger arbs, but that's another issue. Some of the bars for the rear that people are offering damned near turn it into a beam axle....
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
(09-01-2013, 08:24 PM)Piggy Wrote:(09-01-2013, 03:44 PM)Rippthrough Wrote:(09-01-2013, 07:42 AM)Piggy1987 Wrote: has anyone considered having custom independent rear suspension?
The rear suspension is already independent.
ah but not nearly enough
independent wishbones for the win
(09-01-2013, 08:00 PM)ozonehostile Wrote: Doubt Il ever find a xsara vts at a scrappy, bit still, interested in Finding one for the steering rack and torsion bars
me love a shorter rack too....
(09-01-2013, 09:19 PM)Rippthrough Wrote: Not enough? Take the arb out then, you won't get any more independent....
Forgive me for confusing the word fully with completely..
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
There's nothing confusing, arb's are a kinematic effect, they're not a structural member of the suspension, no matter if you put a 100mm bar in there and locked the rear beam solid, geometrically, it's still independent.
I'd be interested in what you think is more independent than the 306's suspension...I bet they have ARB's too...
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
Yes, but as you said in the quoted post, not completely independent. Kinematically, geometrically, whatever. If the ARB joins the trailing arms and affects spring rate as the wheels move in relation to each other there IS interaction, the confusion is coming from my interpretation of the word "fully".
I'm not arguing that you know the definition of an independent suspension setup...
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
But the ARB is just a tuning aid, it's not required as part of the suspension, it's not structural at all, it's just a spring.
If you leave the springs on, technically no suspension is independent, because the spring will twist the chassis...
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Curt - 04-09-2013
For the record, I was never saying you could fit shims to a 306. Merely that it's what it sounded like you meant with the talk of "other cars".
Continue with your handbags ladies.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Bender - 04-09-2013
It is an independent suspension setup however its not a completely fully independent setup. What I mean by that is each rear corner cannot adjust itself via dampers etc or using brakes to keep it on the track like these modern sport cars can. So if one corner is slipping out the 306 can't stop that happen independently.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Eeyore - 04-09-2013
literally just read all of this and want to die...
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - samass - 04-09-2013
Bender, you mean ts not "actve"
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Niall - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 09:23 PM)Bender Wrote: It is an independent suspension setup however its not a completely fully independent setup. What I mean by that is each rear corner cannot adjust itself via dampers etc or using brakes to keep it on the track like these modern sport cars can. So if one corner is slipping out the 306 can't stop that happen independently.
So your talking about active dampers? Not independent suspension.
And also, in a hard breaking situation, the 306 can 'keep its self on track' by slowing/stopping each individual wheel if its a ph3.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Bender - 04-09-2013
Read it all again, so we can get rid of the moaning.
I don't think so, I mean each corner can set itself up for that particular time which will be different to the other side suspension both working fully independently and I mean TPS traction control iirc.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Niall - 04-09-2013
No one is moaning. Just what you describe above sounds like active damping which i think you are getting confused with independent suspension.
If you had a car that had "independent" rear wishbone suspension, it will only be as independent as a 306 rear setup. The only thing connecting the two sides is the arb as has been said by several others.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - samass - 04-09-2013
Just go and Google some suspension terms, find a glossary or something, and then come back and everything will make sense
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Grant - 04-09-2013
^^^ this.
Not being rude mate but you don't even understand the concept of a spigot ring
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Niall - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 09:30 PM)Bender Wrote: I don't think so, I mean each corner can set itself up for that particular time which will be different to the other side suspension both working fully independently and I mean TPS traction control iirc.
What your describing is Active suspension mate. Each damper can change its damping rate depending on the conditions its going to be used under at that one time.
Independent suspension can be active or non active dampers but just means that each wheel is free to move independently from the other wheel on that axle.
TPS is a completely different thing altogether and has nothing to do with suspension. Its just another driver aid like ABS or EBD. all it will do is apply the brake or cut the power to a wheel if it looses traction
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Bender - 04-09-2013
Iv never use the stupid things because I use Peugeot fitment, the only difference to spigot and spacers is that one bolts on and used to bolt a wheel on, the other just to space a wheel for bigger brakes.
So what is an F1's rear suspension then without electronics ?
The way i see it is that when a car is full of computers and technology that controls each of the cars corner suspension ability independently from the other, each corner adjusting itself either shock or other for each corners particular moment at any time. They do call it active but its still working on its own merit differently to the other side which can be seen like how I call it as completely independent, ie to cope with how that particular corners affecting it. Either way its each to their own and no point arguing about it more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_suspension
Also like how cars can put more power into one rear wheel to cope with it slipping, that corner is working independently from the other side, doing its own independent thing.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - cwspellowe - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 10:24 PM)Bender Wrote: Iv never use the stupid things because I use Peugeot fitment, the only difference to spigot and spacers is that one bolts on and used to bolt a wheel on, the other just to space a wheel for bigger brakes.
So what is an F1's rear suspension then without electronics ?
The way i see it is that when a car is full of computers and technology that controls each of the cars corner suspension ability independently from the other, each corner adjusting itself either shock or other for each corners particular moment at any time. They do call it active but its still working on its own merit differently to the other side which can be seen like how I call it as completely independent, ie to cope with how that particular corners affecting it. Either way its each to their own and no point arguing about it more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_suspension
Also like how cars can put more power into one rear wheel to cope with it slipping, that corner is working independently from the other side, doing its own independent thing.
Right but now you're talking about drive, which ventures into the territory of diffs and EBD.
And FYI spigots are used to adapt the centre bore of a wheel so it sits hubcentrically when bolted to the hub, allowing the wheel to fit centrally and help eliminate wheel wobble.
Spacers are spacers, be they bolt on or bolt through. Nothing to do with spigots.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Bender - 04-09-2013
It says here, unreliable I know but says the beam is a semi independent suspension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-beam_rear_suspension
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Curt - 04-09-2013
You can have independent suspension that isn't computerised, like the 306 as has been said and many other cars.
A spigot and a spacer are nothing alike. A spigot is a ring which is used to adapt different centre bores.
As said, you need to do some more reading or listen to what people are saying rather than just saying you're right.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Bender - 04-09-2013
Read what iv just said, I said its independent just not actively independent. Some call it this some call it that, Completely independent, independent or semi independent.
They are both rings with just slightly different uses that's all, both space wheels out.
I don't care who's right or wrong, its about what words people use that means the same thing, also the correct info is important no matter who said it. If you can't cope with how I see it as completely independent then its your problem not mine, each to their own. As said there is actively (completely as I call it) then independent, then semi independent as the axle beam has been called via the link iv just posted.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - bigtone0777 - 04-09-2013
Independant purely means that one side rear wheel can move up and down without moving the other side rear wheel up and down unlike for example a Ford Capri's set up which is a solid axle.
Spacers space wheels out from the hub where as spigots do not space out from the hub but make the hubs centre flange larger to accept a wheel with a larger centre bore without adding stress to the wheel bolts/studs.
I think I've put this in laymens terms as I think there's some confusion over wording.
RE: Camber spigot rings ?? - Rippthrough - 04-09-2013
(04-09-2013, 09:23 PM)Bender Wrote: It is an independent suspension setup however its not a completely fully independent setup. What I mean by that is each rear corner cannot adjust itself via dampers etc or using brakes to keep it on the track like these modern sport cars can. So if one corner is slipping out the 306 can't stop that happen independently.
I think you need to learn a little more about suspension before modifying it.
(04-09-2013, 10:32 PM)Bender Wrote: It says here, unreliable I know but says the beam is a semi independent suspension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twist-beam_rear_suspension
The 306 doesn't have a twist beam.