HDI Not Starting - Back Again!!

[8v_chris]

I've done quite a bit of reading on this and searching and can't find anyone with the same symptoms as me! My HDI won't start. When I turn the key and try to start it it tries its best to start, turns over and over, almost catching, but not. Should also add the fault has been intermittent over the weekend up until last night when it won't go.

What I've found so far;

• Turning the key makes the in tank pump buzz away, so the fuel system is priming
  
• Fault is intermittent and weather/temperature of engine/full moon doesn't make a difference
  
• Battery is ok, holding 13 volts after being charged, hitting 14.3v when running last
  
• Checked the fuse (9) under the dash, 20 amp for injection control unit, seems ok
  
• Checked fuses in the engine bay, all seem ok
  
• Fuel appears to be getting through the system, if i pump the throttle prior to trying to start, it'll try and bite, nearly even go for a split second
  
• Connections etc all seem good, but as fault is intermittent im leaning towards this.
  
• The bit that confuses me - when ignition comes on there is no engine management light so assuming ECU isn't talking to injectors.
  

I don't have access to a code scanner so I know I should do that next, but if the ECU isn't speaking surely it won't read anything anyways?

What should my next move be, aside from reading codes, what should I look at?

[Poodle]

Have a look at the fuel control relay, big brown relay behind the ecu. They're very common to have dodgy connections, unplug it and have a good look for burnt out pins or corrosion on the relay itself and the plug.

Ideally you need to get it on live data to check cam/crank signals, immob signal, fuel rail pressure on cranking and cranking speed. Have you tried jump leads?

[8v_chris]

Got the plug off and have given it a liberal spray with contact cleaner, also did the ecu plugs. All seem
Ok though and have no signs of corrosion. I’ve orderes a new genuine Peugeot relay as well. For the sake of £15 it seemed stupid not to. Failing that I’ll need to try and get a code reader and see what’s what. Hopefully it’ll be the brown relay.

Not tired jump leads on it but do have a battery charger and been leaving it on charge to soak to make sure it’s fully charged. Turns over better than anything else I have lying about the house after it’s been on it!

[madmadmax]

i have two, both do this with no codes.

[8v_chris]

i have two, both do this with no codes.

Thats not reassuring!! How do you get around the problem?

On a side note, what indicates that the immo has actually been activated/is stopping the engine starting? That'd be on the plip key on a ph3.

[Ruan]

If the EML isn't on, that's a sure sign that power isn't getting to the ECU *OR* the ECU is sometimes failing it's checksums on boot, however that should leave a code logged regarding Internal Checksum Error and I'd expect it to leave the EML on, that is pretty unlikely though, I'd go with the no power option.

If the immobiliser is blocking start, the EML will be on, I can tell you that this is not an immobiliser issue. Does the EML ever come on? Remember it doesn't look the same as most other cars - it looks like this:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ieINjwpaIoI/maxresdefault.jpg

[8v_chris]

If the EML isn't on, that's a sure sign that power isn't getting to the ECU *OR* the ECU is sometimes failing it's checksums on boot, however that should leave a code logged regarding Internal Checksum Error and I'd expect it to leave the EML on, that is pretty unlikely though, I'd go with the no power option.

If the immobiliser is blocking start, the EML will be on, I can tell you that this is not an immobiliser issue. Does the EML ever come on? Remember it doesn't look the same as most other cars - it looks like this:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ieINjwpaIoI/maxresdefault.jpg

perfect thanks for that. yes, it was coming on when the car was running. its not coming on now though. I got it scanned after borrowing a code reader and it took some going to get it to work but eventually got it working. codes as are as follows;

P0403 - exhaust gas recirculation control circuit
P0510 - closed throttle position sensor
P00CC - Fuel control regulator solenoid supply voltage control circuit low

Im guessing the fault lies with the last code but could that be a result of an ecu fault? When scanning etc the EML light didnt make an appearance at all.

EDIT - meant to add, theres a fuel cut off switch that is sitting up by the ecu. the wee bracket that holds it seems to have broken and is missing, so it can move about a wee bit. The switch was also cable tied to its plug to stop it flailing about. its engaging would it kill the ecu?

[Ruan]

That won't kill the ECU, it merely prevents power going to the lift pump, so if the lift pump runs, it's not that. What's very odd is that you say that the lift pump is running, but the EML isn't on?! If it's a power to the ECU problem, the double relay wouldn't power on, thus not powering the lift pump (unless your lift pump has been bodged to run via a different ign power source). If the ECU isn't happy about it's status (note: that doesn't mean the immobiliser is blocking start, that's checked at a much later stage and the ECU is booted and the EML will be on), it won't power on the double relay, the EML won't come on and the lift pump won't run - so something is a-miss here.

[8v_chris]

That won't kill the ECU, it merely prevents power going to the lift pump, so if the lift pump runs, it's not that. What's very odd is that you say that the lift pump is running, but the EML isn't on?! If it's a power to the ECU problem, the double relay wouldn't power on, thus not powering the lift pump (unless your lift pump has been bodged to run via a different ign power source). If the ECU isn't happy about it's status (note: that doesn't mean the immobiliser is blocking start, that's checked at a much later stage and the ECU is booted and the EML will be on), it won't power on the double relay, the EML won't come on and the lift pump won't run - so something is a-miss here.

Well the lift pump buzzes for maybe 3/4 seconds then cuts out, when the ignition is turned on so its priming. you can even feel it if you put your hand lightly onto the seat but at this stage the back seat is up and the lift pump exposed. If the key is turned further as though to start the car i cant hear if its continuing to run because of the noise of the engine turning over. Is it possible that the fault lies with the double relay? Its sending the signal to run the pump but then something isnt running back to the ecu, or perhaps theres an inline fuse somewhere, fuse in the fuse box i've missed?

As far as i can see, theres no odd wiring, bodging or general poor workmanship on anything, or not as far as i can see anyways. the only thing potentially dodgy is the ecu wiring has no cover over it, leaving the plugs more or less exposed. also, after looking round things earlier, i suspect the engine has been jetwashed/steam cleaned prior to MOT. I'm betting its the source of the issue, or the thing thats triggered the problem anyways. Water has got in, damaged the ECU and now its corrupt.

For clarity, this is what I'm seeing when i turn the ignition on. this is the second i turn the key. the glow plugs only run for a second at most. no EML - 

[8v_chris]

After getting the error message regarding the regulator I pulled out the FPR and gave it a good clean on the bench. Ran a test and got 2.2 ohms resistance. After reading online about the older Dephi FPR, it was advised that it should have 5 or so Ohms resistance. I know they're not the same part, not even the manufacturer, but does 2.2 Ohms sound too low? Was going to wire a battery onto it and see what it does but i cant get a connection onto the pins. Should also say the wires running to the plug for FPR it was getting 11.5v

[8v_chris]

So, at face value this seems to be solved. Changed the brown dual relay for a genuine part and hey presto, it starts. Now this was only after I had got a second hand solenoid but i'll come to that. The relay that was fitted didn't appear to be a genuine one, looks like a mickey mouse ebay special. Maybe that was the trick, or maybe it had just given up, who knows.

The solenoid was removed and cleaned the same done with the connections but little difference was made from what i can tell anyway, it was no cleaner going back in as it was coming out. The car breaker seemed sure that the solenoid I had would match his, despite different part numbers. My original was 0281002284 (top) and his was 0281002493 (bottom) and they are NOT the same. Only when i got them back did i notice the difference, cleaner to see in the photos below. For those wondering, i measured 2.2 ohms resistance on both of them, so I'm guessing thats right for the part.



In the mean time, the car is going but the engine management light still isn't coming on again so maybe, just maybe, it was a very odd coincidence that it went out at the same time.

[8v_chris]

So it's back again!! Good news is that I've fixed the EML and it now lights up again on ignition on. Heres what I know so far,

New brown twin relay (genuine part) fitted and makes no difference to the problem it seems
Fuel getting as far as the pressure regulator so guessing that means its coming through the pump
Lift pump runs fine
No error codes being recorded!

My guess is a bad connection somewhere thats telling the car not to fire. It's doing exactly as it did before, tries its best to start and turns over until the battery dies. When it went yesterday though there wasn't much power in the battery left but it still went so I dont think the issue lies with the battery.

Help!!

[Ruan]

So the EML is on, but it won't fire?

Sounds like immobiliser cutting it now if the EML is on and it just won't start and it seems otherwise fine - you need to get this on proper diagnostics (i.e. PP2k) before throwing parts at it.