Clutch Questions, Help Needed

[wainwrightj]

So the clutch on the Rallye is on the way out and my and my mate are going to tackle it over the weekend

I've been looking at a couple of guides one here and one on the gti6 forum and I feel confident that we can get it done, we're going to take our time and do it properly

I've ordered a Valeo clutch kit, DURA clutch cable, Genuine clutch fork bushes and Genuine Driveshaft seals

I've got a couple of questions though

• Should I use loctite on the clutch to flywheel bolts?
  
• Should I purchase new hub nuts or can you reuse the old ones?
  
• If I can't get hold of a torque wrench to correctly torque the hub nuts would you suggest just doing them up as tight as I possibly can (body weight and a breaker bar tight) or leave it until I can torque them correctly?
  
• Also following on from that which one would apply to a 1999 Rallye, build number is 08102?
  • Front Hub, M20, Before VIN 808980 = 196 lb ft
    
  • Front Hub, M20, After VIN 808980 = 181lb ft
    
  • Front Hub, M24 = 237lb ft
    
• This may well me a huge no no but in the interest of saving money would I be okay to reuse the gearbox oil (only 5000ish miles old)?
  
• Also the kit didn't come with an alignment tool as some others did so any tips for aligning everything without the tool
  

Also if you could all let me know if there's anything I've missed that would be great

Any help is massively appreciated, thanks in advance

[wainwrightj]

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[Mighty306]

*Should I use loctite on the clutch to flywheel bolts?

You only need to remove the flywheel to have it resurfaced or if you plan to replace the crank seal while the gearbox is off.  Some suggest 'roughing it up' lightly with a fine abrasive cloth to help the clutch bed in but not sure what others think of that practice.

*Should I purchase new hub nuts or can you reuse the old ones?

I believe the official line is they shouldn't be reused as they deform slightly when tightened to spec & don't perform quite the same when reused.  Most don't bother though & take the view that if they're properly tightened & staked or held on with the locking nut there's v little risk of them coming loose.  (Make sure the threads are clean n dry when re-tightening).  Your choice really.  I have replaced them when the hubs have been off for any reason as I picked some up super-cheap a while back.

*If I can't get hold of a torque wrench to correctly torque the hub nuts would you suggest just doing them up as tight as I possibly can (body weight and a breaker bar tight) or leave it until I can torque them correctly?

I have a torque wrench that goes up to 350Nm so can get the 320Nm required.  (Remind me where you are?) If it's any help the wrench is 600mm long (550 to centre of handle) and I have to use most of my upper body weight to get 320Nm of torque but don't have to stand on it.  (I only weigh 10.5 stone!).  By my calculation you need to apply a force of about 60Kg at a distance of 550mm from the fulcrum point to be equivalent to 320Nm.

*Also following on from that which one would apply to a 1999 Rallye, build number is 08102?
*Front Hub, M20, Before VIN 808980 = 196 lb ft
*Front Hub, M20, After VIN 808980 = 181lb ft
*Front Hub, M24 = 237lb ft

It'll be a an M24 nut (Peugeot part number 3297.33) tightened to 320Nm/236lb ft.  They commonly require a 35mm socket but sometimes aftermarket driveshafts are supplied with M24 nuts that need a 36mm socket.

*This may well me a huge no no but in the interest of saving money would I be okay to reuse the gearbox oil (only 5000ish miles old)?

I wouldn't have any hesitation about re-using it after that short amount of time in the box.

*Also the kit didn't come with an alignment tool as some others did so any tips for aligning everything without the tool

The Valeo kits normally come with a plastic alignment tool so it must be missing.  Sometimes a deep socket will be just the right diameter to act as an alignment tool.  Depends how extensive your toolkit is![/list]

[wainwrightj]

*Should I use loctite on the clutch to flywheel bolts?

You only need to remove the flywheel to have it resurfaced or if you plan to replace the crank seal while the gearbox is off.  Some suggest 'roughing it up' lightly with a fine abrasive cloth to help the clutch bed in but not sure what others think of that practice.

*Should I purchase new hub nuts or can you reuse the old ones?

I believe the official line is they shouldn't be reused as they deform slightly when tightened to spec & don't perform quite the same when reused.  Most don't bother though & take the view that if they're properly tightened & staked or held on with the locking nut there's v little risk of them coming loose.  (Make sure the threads are clean n dry when re-tightening).  Your choice really.  I have replaced them when the hubs have been off for any reason as I picked some up super-cheap a while back.

*If I can't get hold of a torque wrench to correctly torque the hub nuts would you suggest just doing them up as tight as I possibly can (body weight and a breaker bar tight) or leave it until I can torque them correctly?

I have a torque wrench that goes up to 350Nm so can get the 320Nm required.  (Remind me where you are?) If it's any help the wrench is 600mm long (550 to centre of handle) and I have to use most of my upper body weight to get 320Nm of torque but don't have to stand on it.  (I only weigh 10.5 stone!).  By my calculation you need to apply a force of about 60Kg at a distance of 550mm from the fulcrum point to be equivalent to 320Nm.

*Also following on from that which one would apply to a 1999 Rallye, build number is 08102?
   *Front Hub, M20, Before VIN 808980 = 196 lb ft
   *Front Hub, M20, After VIN 808980 = 181lb ft
   *Front Hub, M24 = 237lb ft

It'll be a an M24 nut (Peugeot part number 3297.33) tightened to 320Nm/236lb ft.  They commonly require a 35mm socket but sometimes aftermarket driveshafts are supplied with M24 nuts that need a 36mm socket.

*This may well me a huge no no but in the interest of saving money would I be okay to reuse the gearbox oil (only 5000ish miles old)?

I wouldn't have any hesitation about re-using it after that short amount of time in the box.

*Also the kit didn't come with an alignment tool as some others did so any tips for aligning everything without the tool

The Valeo kits normally come with a plastic alignment tool so it must be missing.  Sometimes a deep socket will be just the right diameter to act as an alignment tool.  Depends how extensive your toolkit is![/list]

This is brilliant thanks mate!

Ahh when i say clutch to fly wheel I mean the bolts that join the pressure plate to the flywheel if that's even the case?

I'll have to see what size mine are before I can think about ordering new ones so may end up reusing the old ones

I'm based near Yeovil now so about an hour from Bristol

I'll just run the oil through a filter of sort to try and avoid pouring anything bad back in

I've read about people aligning them with sockets and such so I'll just give that a shot

[Toms306]

No, pressure plate bolts don't need loctite. They're a very low torque setting as well.

Get a proper aligning tool if it's your first time...the pull type clutch is an arsenal to line up the box with the clutch fork as it is, don't make it more difficult with off centre splines lol.

[wainwrightj]

No, pressure plate bolts don't need loctite.  They're a very low torque setting as well.

Get a proper aligning tool if it's your first time...the pull type clutch is an arsenal to line up the box with the clutch fork as it is, don't make it more difficult with off centre splines lol.

Where would I get a cheap one from, it's not a job i'm planning on doing more than once so won't need to be anything special

Given the low torque settings is it worth buying a torque wrench to do the hub nuts instead of one suited for the clutch bolts? I've been quoted £250 labour for someone else to fit the clutch but by doing it myself I was planning on spending some of that money on a torque wrench to do this job and then others later on down the line?

[Mighty306]

Re an alignment tool, a Silverline one from eBay isn't expensive. Someone might have another recommendation tho. https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNIVERSAL-CLUTC...r=1&_rdt=1

Re a torque wrench, ones with a decent name (e.g. Teng) that go up to 350Nm are often pretty expensive (£100+). Hard to justify the cost unless you think you'll use it a fair bit.  (Toolzone do one for £50 :o ....cheap but likely nasty & poorly made).

[wainwrightj]

Re an alignment tool, a Silverline one from eBay isn't expensive. Someone might have another recommendation tho. https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNIVERSAL-CLUTC...r=1&_rdt=1

Re a torque wrench, ones with a decent name (e.g. Teng) that go up to 350Nm are often pretty expensive (£100+). Hard to justify the cost unless you think you'll use it a fair bit.  (Toolzone do one for £50 :o ....cheap but likely nasty & poorly made).

Well I was quoted £250 to fit it so even if I spent £150 I'd still have saved £100 doing it myself and I'd have that torque wrench lying around

I think id be better off getting a torque wrench that has a slightly more modest/ useful range (Halfords' Model 60 has a range of 12-60nm) that I can use on more things in the future and see if I can get hold of a torque wrench man enough to sort the hub nuts

[Toms306]

You said you've bought a valeo clutch right? They always used to come with a blue plastic 'disposable' clutch aligner...have you opened the box and checked?

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a torque wrench for the hub nuts, you can actually feel when they hit the 'stop', and if reusing old nuts, you can make a small mark on the end of the driveshaft and the nut to match together when refitting. My torque wrench only goes to 300Nm so I've always done the final bit by hand with a 3ft breaker...not caused any issues and I've done plenty of 306 clutches over the years. The smaller torque wrench is useful to have, though 12-60 may be a bit too small depending on future jobs, something that covers wheel bolts and nuts (usually 85-130Nm depending on make and model) would be more useful.

[wainwrightj]

You said you've bought a valeo clutch right?  They always used to come with a blue plastic 'disposable' clutch aligner...have you opened the box and checked?

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with a torque wrench for the hub nuts, you can actually feel when they hit the 'stop', and if reusing old nuts, you can make a small mark on the end of the driveshaft and the nut to match together when refitting.  My torque wrench only goes to 300Nm so I've always done the final bit by hand with a 3ft breaker...not caused any issues and I've done plenty of 306 clutches over the years.  The smaller torque wrench is useful to have, though 12-60 may be a bit too small depending on future jobs, something that covers wheel bolts and nuts (usually 85-130Nm depending on make and model) would be more useful.

There's not an alignment tool in the box : I had read they come with them so was hoping it would, it's a shame it hasn't really

There's also a Model 200 torque wrench which is 40-200nm so maybe that'll be more suitable although I won't be able to torque the pressure plate bolts with that

I might contact euro car parts and see if they have them lying about could've fallen out the box or something

[cully]

£250 to fit a clutch on a GTI6 pay it! saves you struggling on your back trying to line up the pull bearing fork cant of a job without a lift and tranny jacks!
replace the crank seal behind the flywheel too

[wainwrightj]

£250 to fit a clutch on a GTI6 pay it! saves you struggling on your back trying to line up the pull bearing fork cant of a job without a lift and tranny jacks!
replace the crank seal behind the flywheel too

I was thinking that but that guy's usually got a massive waiting list and then I won't learn to do it myself even if it is a pig

Replacing the crank seal means taking the flywheel off and then worrying about more torque values :o

It seems stupid not too though given that I'd have it all off anyways, is Corteco a good brand only one available on ECP?

[Magenta Sunset]

probably a conversation killer, but I took my car to Mr Clutch. not quite so cheap, but then i'm no longer young or fit enough to scrabbling about under the car on stands.

[wainwrightj]

probably a conversation killer, but I took my car to Mr Clutch. not quite so cheap, but then i'm no longer young or fit enough to scrabbling about under the car on stands.

If it all goes horrible wrong I'll let you all know but hopefully I'll be alright and can get everything sorted

[Magenta Sunset]

good luck buddy! remember, when in doubt - - brew up!

[wainwrightj]

good luck buddy! remember, when in doubt - - brew up!

Thanks dude hopefully we'll smash it and everything will go seamlessly but given that everything else I've touched has been the opposite I'm not feeling too hopeful

As a complete newbie doing their first clutch on a 6 i'm not exactly setting myself up for success

[Magenta Sunset]

it will be one of those jobs that take twice as long as you first estimate ( Dept. of Guesswork), but taking a steady methodical approach should pay off.

[wainwrightj]

So far it's been a huge pain in a**, don't know if anyone saw my post on the rallye owners facebook group but, the drivers side driveshaft was being a b****, the clutch cable is being a b**** now and that stupid rubber grommet thing isn't sliding into the firewall as it should so that's annoying

Other than that I'm happy with how all the seals have gone in, we've greased up the intermediate shaft bearing carrier so if it ever needs to come off again it will, now we just need to fanny around with the box and try to get everything lined up need to find out how the clutch fork sits behind the bearing as I can't really figure out what's supposed to be going on at the moment

[Toms306]

The driver's side shaft always has been a complete arse to remove lol.

Clutch cable should be easy on the Rallye though due to no air con pipes. Just make sure the rubber edge hasn't folded over when you're trying to push it in.

When you refit the box, make sure the release bearing flat side is facing you. Then the clutch fork has to face the engine while sliding the box into place, and then twist it clockwise at the last moment to hook into the release bearing. Sounds complicated but makes sense when you see it.

[wainwrightj]

The driver's side shaft always has been a complete arse to remove lol.  

Clutch cable should be easy on the Rallye though due to no air con pipes.  Just make sure the rubber edge hasn't folded over when you're trying to push it in.

When you refit the box, make sure the release bearing flat side is facing you.  Then the clutch fork has to face the engine while sliding the box into place, and then twist it clockwise at the last moment to hook into the release bearing.  Sounds complicated but makes sense when you see it.

Should be if your rallye doesn't have air con like mine :/ I have taken the AC radiator out but the pipes are all still in place in case I want to repair it and re sell the car as an even rarer rallye with air con!

I was going to ask about the box so that will help a lot, so if you're stood at the front of the car looking towards the passenger seat, you want the realease bearings flatter face facing you and the weird side facing the firewall, then you slide the box on with the fork pointing toward the engine until the fork can be rotated behind the bearing (as in between the bearing and the pressure plate?)

EDIT
I understand how that works now, the fork arms almost wrap around the back of the bearing and slot into the weird side of the bearing

[Toms306]

Yep, you've got it. . I realise now 'flat' side didn't make much sense lol, you want the side with the fork cut outs facing the front of the car.

A Rallye with air con!? :o Makes you wonder why the original owner didn't buy a GTi6 instead... Does it have any other comfort options, electric windows or CD changer etc?

[wainwrightj]

Yep, you've got it. . I realise now 'flat' side didn't make much sense lol, you want the side with the fork cut outs facing the front of the car.

A Rallye with air con!? :o Makes you wonder why the original owner didn't buy a GTi6 instead...  Does it have any other comfort options, electric windows or CD changer etc?

Oh so hang on fork cut outs on the bearing facing the front bumper and the fork arms slot trough the cutouts and push on the back of the bearing instead of what I said initially

Is it a case of getting the splines lined up first then doing the fork or do they have to be done at the same time?

Nothing else just AC I don't know much about the car before my ownership really, its a JNH reg there was 3 (1 of each color) sold from one dealership a dude called James owns the white one, saw that at pugfest which was cool but don't know the whereabouts of the red one

[cully]

on the clutch bearing if it is a Valeo unit is the word "HAUT" that translates from french to english as "TOP"
the fork arm will then slot into the two cutouts as you slide the box on the splines and turn the fork arm at the same time

its all done on the blind

[Toms306]

Yep, you've got it. . I realise now 'flat' side didn't make much sense lol, you want the side with the fork cut outs facing the front of the car.

A Rallye with air con!? :o Makes you wonder why the original owner didn't buy a GTi6 instead...  Does it have any other comfort options, electric windows or CD changer etc?

Oh so hang on fork cut outs on the bearing facing the front bumper and the fork arms slot trough the cutouts and push on the back of the bearing instead of what I said initially

Is it a case of getting the splines lined up first then doing the fork or do they have to be done at the same time?

Nothing else just AC I don't know much about the car before my ownership really, its a JNH reg there was 3 (1 of each color) sold from one dealership a dude called James owns the white one, saw that at pugfest which was cool but don't know the whereabouts of the red one

You were right the first time, the fork hooks in-between the pressure plate and release bearing. It can then 'pull' the bearing which in turn pulls on the pressure plate...hence these being 'pull type' instead of the more common, and much easier, push type.

As cully says, it's all done blind and at the same time... definitely worth having someone help with it.

[wainwrightj]

Brilliant I'll give it another shot tonight, I had no chance doing it on my own, trying to get the box in the right orientation isn't easy on your own and because of the lack of a stud extractor we're having to try and do it all with the stud trying to eat away at the chassis leg

Would you all leave the engine jacked up level or lower the engine slightly to allow the box to slide in under the leg slightly easier

Also what the hell do you do with the starter motor, mines just flopping all over the place does this go in once the box is lined up and ready to be bolted together or before?

[Toms306]

I drop the engine a bit, some trail and error with the ideal height there, but just be careful not to put any strain on the AC pipes as you're wanting to keep them.

The starter goes on after the box is back in position and all bolted up.

[wainwrightj]

I drop the engine a bit, some trail and error with the ideal height there, but just be careful not to put any strain on the AC pipes as you're wanting to keep them.

The starter goes on after the box is back in position and all bolted up.

Brilliant thanks for all the help mate!