Rear beam ...the good and the bad

[Mighty306]

I recently posted about the crossmember bolts on a beam I changed mounts on a few months ago.  Well, it started making a clonking noise last week but only after being sat stationary for a minute or two, as if something was stuck & then freeing itself.  VERY noticeable when it happens.

Had a quick look underneath & see tyres (particularly D/S) are scrubbing on inside edges & when I looked more closely I started to convince myself I could see some camber that shouldn't be there!  When they go do they really go that quickly?  Am convinced I would have noticed uneven tyre wear when I had the car up on stands to do the mounts.

   

   

Anyway, I had planned to rebuild the beam myself at some point because the car didn't come with any service history and on the beam rebuild guide Welshpug says most beams would be well overdue some attention.  I have some of the parts (SNR bearing kits x 2 with seals etc & new trailing arm shafts).  It looks like it needs doing as a matter of priority and am realistically not going to have the time to do it for a good few months.  (Am guessing when inner bearings are really bad it puts a heck of a lot of strain on everything else, incl ARB ends torsion bars).  Think I really need to see whether one of you guys can do it for me.

I know Stef205 & Welshpug both offer a service but being a newbie I don't know how to put feelers out other than via a post!  Am in Bath/Bristol area so not sure who'd be closest.

Many thanks in advance guys.

[bashbarnard]

I think stef is lyme regis area from memory i could be wrong though. not to sure where welshpug is. Id hazard wales somewhere though

[Stef205]

looks like you have serious camber there, at a guess id say a dead tube for it to lean in that far. Very common now in 306's much like the 205 tubes. As bash said im in lyme regis dorset should you want some one to look at it.

[Mighty306]

looks like you have serious camber there, at a guess id say a dead tube for it to lean in that far. Very common now in 306's much like the 205 tubes. As bash said im in lyme regis dorset should you want some one to look at it.

'..serious camber'.  Damn, how did I not notice that before?!  My own stupid fault as should have attended to bearings as soon as I got the car.  (Prob same with other too). Think I convinced myself only mounts needed attention straight away. Have now taken it off the road & swapped to XSi number 2 .....but that's not without its problems either!

Thanks for the offer of sorting it Stef & for your assessment!  Lyme is a bit of a trek but may be able to combine bringing it down with a visit to my big sis near Poole.  Will get back to you next month as for a whole load of reasons I won't have a chance to strip the beam off the car for a good few weeks.  Not sure how I'd get in touch (other reviving this thread) as can't PM at the moment.

[pug306driver]

kwik fit etc offer a free ( free!! ) wheel alignment check with the super doper laser machine, just refuse the adjustment service unless you have the money. Its advertised as free sop they cannot charge for the free check, paper print out with all info.

[maxaret]

Camber doesn't look that bad to me
On my old 405 I had started to wonder why the damn thing was starting to 'wander' or tramline and feel generally unstable.
Anyway I had a look round the car and noticed a lot of camber on the rear wheels along with no tread left on inner edges of rear tyres.
I needed a quick fix so I went down to my local indy peugeot/citroen garage cum scrappy and asked if they could jack it up and fit a good complete 2nd hand rear beam etc (after all its only a few bolts innit ) - the guy said ''never thought of doing that before'' 
Absolutely transformed the handling of the car which was on about 200,000 miles at that time.
The other clue that something was amiss with the beam was rust particles coming out of the radius arm hinge/bearing area.

[Mighty306]

kwik fit etc offer a free ( free!! ) wheel alignment check with the super doper laser machine, just refuse the adjustment service unless you have the money. Its advertised as free sop they cannot charge for the free check, paper print out with all info.

Thanks for the tip. Will bear it in mind for the future. Don't think it'll be any help on the rear tho - no adjustment really, just bearing wear!

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Cheers Maxaret. Your beam sounded properly knackered!!?If someone could offer me a 2nd hand beam that was guaranteed to be good I'd be on it in a flash! Think still likely to be going down rebuild route tho so I have peace of mind that it's sorted for a good few years.

[maxaret]

[quote pid='612248' dateline='1492588808']
Cheers Maxaret. Your beam sounded properly knackered!!?If someone could offer me a 2nd hand beam that was guaranteed to be good I'd be on it in a flash! Think still likely to be going down rebuild route tho so I have peace of mind that it's sorted for a good few years.

[/quote]

LOL - twas in the days before the internet and car technical knowledge was much more localised,I was extremely lucky that the replacement rear susp was in good nick,and was still going strong at 50,000 miles when I sold the car

[Mighty306]

Update on this. Beam came off the car last weekend, after getting back from holiday. With three 306's in the stable (2 running) I decided having a spare beam ready to go when needed would be a good idea. It gives me time to try to re-build the tired beam at my own pace, including making up the tools I'm going to need. If I royally 'F' it up (a definite possibility) I'll be sending it to one of the experts on here!

Debated getting extra beam from a scrappy but decided it would more than likely have just as many problems as the existing one. Instead I ordered a 'new aftermarket' axle from CP4L, which didn't need old beam in exchange. With the bank hol discount last weekend it cost £311 delivered. Looks OK and has correct size TB's (20mm). It also came with 4 sets of stub axle pins! 1 set was fitted and 3 further sets were taped on to the beam. Each set is a slightly different length, presumably allowing you to fit the beam with disc or drum hubs in their various forms?

I don't have any illusions about this new beam. There's no guarantee quality bearings etc have been used. I just need it to give me some breathing space to get the other beams sorted and it can then be pulled apart, checked, and fitted with a known set of decent bearings in a year or two.

   
   
   

Not sure why the new beam has this machined area on the end of the swing arm as there isn't anything on the old swing arm.  Apart from that they look identical.

   
   


There have been a couple of un-anticipated problems with going down this route though. No doubt some of you will roll your eyes at me being so naive but I'm still learning .....

1) The new beam didn't come with caliper brackets, labelled 4 in the attached diagram. (I don't want to take the one off the old beam as it will mean taking the hub of and possibly wrecking the bearings, which still feel like they're in good nick). I thought I'd have to go hunting at a scrappy for these but it turns out Peugeot only charge £12 + VAT for each bracket. Happy days!! I do have to wait a week for them though as they have to come from France.

   

2) I already had a pair of aftermarket rear hub/bearings. Problem is they don't come supplied with the spacer you need to put behind them. Peugeot don't sell these separately either. At worst I will have to get a pair of hub/bearing kits from Peugeot, which include the spacers. For anyone thinking about getting some, the older style are apparently still available in original spec (part 5 in the diagram) whereas the newer style aren't. Peugeot are only wanting about £34 + VAT ea for the older style ones which isn't bad.

   

3) I bet the ABS sensors aren't going to come out of the old beam. One died on the front last year and I had to drill/chisel it out as corrosion in the hub had exerted a vice-like grip on it. I'd forgotten I'd want to swap them over - doh.

Have a couple of questions resulting from this relatively long ramble .....a) does anyone know where I can source some of the hub spacers (other than a scrappy)? The internet hasn't yielded anything. b) Any recommendations for a good value source of ABS sesors? Ebay has plenty which are either ridiculously cheap and can't possibly be any good or else known brands (Intermotor etc) seem to be £30 upwards. Then found these http://www.autosensors.co.uk/en/519-abs-sensor-454533-454536-454546.html but have the 'buy cheap buy twice' mantra ringing in my head!

[Mighty306]

So had a bit of time to start dismantling the old beam today.  Started with winding out end plates on ARB ...well one of them at least.  Had to put breaker bar on it in the end n was convinced would strip the threads but was OK in the end.

   

Was glad of the impact driver to get the end screws out of the torsion bars.

   

The offset washer came out pretty easily on the n/s arm.  O/s was a different matter.  Walloped the carp out of it with a punch.  The end broke off the punch but the washer did give in eventually.  It's definitely not re-useable!

   

Got as far as trying to wind the TB out but centre stage in my homemade puller was an M8 bolt apparently made of cheese.  (No marking on the end so probably not high tensile).  Luckily it gave up the ghost without leaving anything of itself inside the end of the TB. Lesson learned & high tensile M8 bolt or threaded bar on shopping list.

[welshpug]

you only ever need to remove the right hand arb end plate.

new beam looks like a drum abs type.

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Peugeot do the spacers, parts numbers in your post.

[Mighty306]

you only ever need to remove the right hand arb end plate.

new beam looks like a drum abs type.

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Peugeot do the spacers, parts numbers in your post.

Thanks Welshpug.  The machining for drum ABS makes sense.  It looks like the correct holes are also drilled & tapped for the caliper bracket so hopefully it'll be fine .  (It was sold as disc compatible).  If not ...well, disappointed would be an understatement.

I guessed it wasn't entirely necessary to remove both ARB plates.  I wanted to get them cleaned up in an electrolysis tank but may just treat one with the ARB still attached!

I did speak to the local Peugeot dealer about the spacers.  I got hold one of the old timers who usually seems to know his stuff.  He said they weren't available separately any more.  I might have to try phoning a different dealer and see if I get a different answer.

Cheers

[Stef205]

see this many of times from internet axles, they hate waste so they will machine arms to "fit" all applications. But as said it is for a drum abs and looks like xsara arms aswell.
Their thinking is one axle fits all hense your array of stub axles.

[welshpug]

ahh yes, just noticed the screwed on bumpstop spacers.

[Mighty306]

Cheers Stef. I've read plenty of posts about internet beams and knew I was taking a risk with it as they're built to a budget.  Fingers crossed the gamble pays off.  I hope you don't mind that in the end I didn't take up your offer to rebuild the beams.  I was running out of options having decided I really wanted to have a crack at rebuilding my own beams.

The one I posted about above is clearly dead and the one on the other car I'm driving at the moment is most likely on the way out.  The handling has gone quite vague, the back creaks occasionally, and I think a tiny bit of camber is starting to show.  (The front suspension was all done 18 months ago so don't think that's a cause of the handling issues).

I will be in touch as my beam builds progress though.  I was hoping you could supply various parts.  (I only have bearings & seals).  I'm likely going to need at least one beam tube.

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ahh yes, just noticed the screwed on bumpstop spacers.

Humm, does that mean the old one is a Xsara beam as well then?  Only got that car last Aug & like the others had minimal history with it.

[welshpug]

its possible its a xsara beam already yeah, I don't recall seeing those spacers on a peugeot.


your beam isn't apart yet so you never know 100% what it'll be like

[Mighty306]

So, finally found some time to work on the old beam again and here's the state of play so far.

   

As predicted, the BFH got the right hand torsion bar moving at the end farthest from the swing arm.  Got quite a bit of heat on the end nearest the swing arm and cranked up the puller on it.  It freed itself, but without the spectacular 'crack' I was expecting.

Thought the LH torsion bar would need the same treatment but using the puller it wound out with hardly any effort. The splines were really well greased which made me think it had been out before.  The bearings on the left look pretty good too (original Nadella ones) but the shaft has notches on it where the outer bearings sat. It's only on about a quarter of the circumference of the shaft though and the rest seems perfect.  Makes me wonder whether it can be pressed out, rotated 180 degrees and reused for a little while longer?

   

   

I don't have high hopes for the state of everything on the RHS as the shaft is currently jammed solid inside the tube.  I assume some of the bearings have come adrift and have wedged themselves in there.  I guess I just have to hammer the living daylights out of the swing arm until it works itself free?

Cheers

[Mighty306]

Right hand swing arm finally off.  The word for the shaft (and possibly the tube), I think, starts in 'f' & ends in 'd'.  There wasn't really anything recognisable of the outer bearings, apart from a bit of the shell.  I'll get the tube cleaned up anyway.  I assume you then have to measure the internal diameter where the outer bearing sits to ensure the bearing will still have an interference fit all round?

   

   

Good news is the new beam has gone on.  The caliper brackets fitted it fine as did everything else.  I managed to find some of the spacers to fit the hubs, from Spanish eBay! Just a few more bits to fix back and then it can go for it's MoT.

   

If I need to get a replacement tube for the other beam is there anyone on here who supplies them?

Cheers

[Stef205]

i can supply recon tubes, about £150 fitted with new bearings, seals and outer cups.

[Mighty306]

Many thanks Stef.  Probably a really stupid question but would you say the existing tube is most likely damaged beyond reuse?  I'll have to give it a month or two to get my finances back in order before thinking about a replacement.

[Stef205]

yup wouldnt even question it. good second hand tube or a recon tube.

[Mighty306]

yup wouldnt even question it. good second hand tube or a recon tube.

I was 99% sure it wasn't reusable but there was a small, eternally optimistic corner of my brain that hoped it was! What's the lead time on one of your tubes? Not going to risk getting one from anywhere else. Cheers

[Stef205]

Normally a week sometimes a tad longer

[Mighty306]

These things are never simple are they .  Last job was to pop the shocks back on the new beam.  With the swing arm compressed as far as it would go (car started to lift off the stands) the shocks still wouldn't line up with the upper mounting point.  Conclusion ....they've been set somewhat higher than standard, and so I'm going to have to take the f'ing torsion bars out to re-set the height.  Only consolation is they should come out easily, and I can ensure they are well greased/protected when they go back in.

I don't have a dummy shock made up at the moment, although was thinking about making one with some old shocks I have.  From what I've read 330mm is for standard height.  Is that centre to centre for the mounting points?  In the absence of getting one made up any time soon, can anyone suggest arch to hub centre measurements as I failed to take them before taking the old beam off.  (Doh!!!!).

[welshpug]

a piece of wood with 2 holes drilled will work.

[Mighty306]

a piece of wood with 2 holes drilled will work.

Thanks for the tip. That keeps things nice n simple.

[Mighty306]

Bit of an update on this.  The new beam I bought (from CP4L) got the car through its MoT and seems fine for now.  How well it will last remains to be seen.

In the meantime I've been gradually getting on with refurbishing the old beam.  The local garage pressed out the old swing arm shafts and the stub axles as I wanted to properly clean up the swing arms and repaint them.  A lesson here ...I asked the garage to give me everything back, including the hubs, which I wanted to reuse.  They threw it all in a bag and when I took the hubs out the bearings were full of crap that had dislodged from all the rusty parts.

Various parts went in an electrolysis tank to be cleaned up.  (Thanks to one of Piggy's Youtube vids a while back for getting me started with electrolysis for rust removal.  Lots of other info on the web too).  The swing arms looked like this after a night in the tank.

   

   


10 mins with a wire wheel on a drill and these are the results.

   

   


The rusty splines on the torsion bars and the ARB end plates got the same treatment.

   

   


I've got some new trailing arm shafts to be pressed in to the swing arms shortly and Stef205 supplied an aftermarket beam tube that has bearings and seals already installed.  It looks like a really good quality piece of engineering and will get some pics up when I've taken some.

The costs have added up a but it'll be shortly going on my other car which is also showing some slight camber.  It'll be good to know the beam going on there should last a good while.  My only concern is the mating surfaces between the swing arm and the arb end plates.  Both are quite pitted and I'm not quite sure the foam seal will be able to keep the moisture out.  Was thinking about spraying it all liberally with some anti-corrosion wax to fill the imperfections.  Any other suggestions would be helpful.

[Mighty306]

Nearing the end with the beam rebuild now.  I got an aftermarket tube from Stef a couple of months ago.  It seems like a really solid piece of engineering and comes fitted with quality bearings and also comes with the other bits you need (cups & seals).  Stef also supplied me with some offset washers as Peugeot don't stock them anymore.  He's had some made up.

   

I finally got the swing arms to the local garage and had the new shafts fitted.  Then the brake caliper brackets got a clean-up and were refitted.

   

After several coats of paint in the standard colours I've put everything together temporarily.  All of the parts that normally corrode have had a healthy dose of anti-corrosion wax (Dynax S50) in the hope it won't rust itself together.  The torsion bars will have to come out again to set the height on the red car and I'll get the ARB end plates properly back on once I've done that.

   

For anyone who questions the price of getting the likes of Stef to rebuild a beam to a high standard, don't.  There really is a lot of work involved.  I probably would do another one if needed but I'm very glad I didn't need it in a hurry!

[welshpug]

that outer bearing is too far in, shouldn't make much difference but its only meant to be inset by a mm.

[Mighty306]

that outer bearing is too far in, shouldn't make much difference but its only meant to be inset by a mm.

I can see why it would be better if the bearing sits as far out as possible but I don't think I'm going to worry about it too much.  The rest of the car might not last long enough to make it an issue!!