XUD not starting when hot - Compression Test

[Dave]

29 bar is fine,

[madmadmax]

being hot can efect the starter as it will caus a breakdown in the insulation in the motor so it will have a weak bit in the rotation or just a plane short to ground

[Harky]

being hot can efect the starter as it will caus a breakdown in the insulation in the motor so it will have a weak bit in the rotation or just a plane short to ground

Cheers, getting the starter done up this week, will try it again then and hopefully that leaves me in a better position!

[Harky]

So turns out there was a brush stuck on the starter, hopefully get it back in a day or two, see how I get on then!

[HDIkyle]

Should do i have heard of afew been the starter myself included

[Harky]

UPDATE: 02/11/14

So brought the starter to get refurbed, there was a brush sticking on it. Got all sorted, but still the same issue with hot starting.

Did a proper compression test last night through the injector sockets, hot results were 385, 445, 370, 380 psi.

So a summary:

Starts the best cold.
Won't start hot.
Will start hot with a bump.

Valve clearances checked.
Compression checked.
New glow plugs.
Glow plugs checked to be getting voltage when hot.
Bosch pump running diesel, no cold start cable.

HELP! Right enough though, not sure what to try with this now?

[welshpug]

as its compression ignition and you have confirmed you have enough compression then it can only be fuel if the timing is correct.

does it start ok with a sniff of something?

[Harky]

Timing wise, I havEn't checked all the pins line up etc, but when it is running, hot or cold, its runs the very best.

A sniff of something would probably be my next step, but not sure what I'll gain from it?

Injectors didn't look overly fresh when I pulled them out. They could probably do with a refurb, they're probably not helping , but I don't know if they are the problem, especially when it starts on a bump. I was also wondering about pulling the plunger out of the stop solenoid, just in case it was losing power on cranking, again though if this was the problem I would have thought it would be a problem cold too? Very confused these days!

[vincent1]

A sniff of something would probably be my next step, but not sure what I'll gain from it?

if it starts straight away when hot with a bit of easystart maybe fuel related defently worth a try.

[welshpug]

stop solenoid is unlikely and very easy to check without butchering it if the pump is not original.

[londondan86]

I'd be checking the timing next.....

---

Or possibly an air leak that is only becoming apparent once the engine is hot and parts have expanded.
How does the grenade feel?

[Harky]

I'd be checking the timing next.....

---

Or possibly an air leak that is only becoming apparent once the engine is hot and parts have expanded.
How does the grenade feel?

When you say check the timing, you mean check all locking pins etc? Or the fuel pump? I generally just set the pump to where it sounds the best.

Grenade seems ok. I tried pumping it till it was hard, then hot starting, same issue.

Tbh, I'd be driving away at the car, stopping for long periods of time or on a hill, wouldn't bother me, but I can't get through mot with a car that won't start hot!

[londondan86]

Yea for timing I'd check all the lockable parts

Does the grenade go soft while starting hot?

Also shouldn't have a problem with the mot, just tell them not to turn it off.

Also may be worth checking all the earth's are tight too as a joint could be expanding the connection when it gets hot

[Harky]

I'll try and get the timing checked this week.

Couldn't tell you what the grenade does tbh. I know fuel comes out in some quantity anyway for I soaked the engine in diesel doing the compression test yesterday with injectors out. I have three spare injectors that look to be in much better condition, might fire them back in, and I'll check earths also. Thinking of disconnecting the wiring loom completely and just running power to the stop solenoid, glow plugs and then starter. If it doesn't start then its defo not electrical.

Unfortunately our mot over here is very different to yours, they start and stop the car at least 5 times!

[madmadmax]

check the timing on evreything so lock the crank off and then see if the cam and pump timing maches up with the lock pins, all 8mm pins i think.

if that checks out then you need to start looking at the valve clerances

[Harky]

check the timing on evreything so lock the crank off and then see if the cam and pump timing maches up with the lock pins, all 8mm pins i think.

if that checks out then you need to start looking at the valve clerances

Yea, I generally use intercooler bolts!

Valve clearances have been checked already, wern't too bad, might be values somewhere on the last page!

[vincent1]

did you try it with a bit of easy start when hot? did it start easier.

[Harky]

did you try it with a bit of easy start when hot? did it start easier.

Na, haven't had a chance tbh. I live away from home atm so get limited time to actually work at the car.

[londondan86]

Yep soz mate didn't notice your location. The NI test is much stricter too

Still think it could well be an air/fuel issue. See how the grenade feels when the engine is hot, give it a squeeze when warm and see if it stays firm
Also fyi when doing a compression test disconnect the stop solenoid, will prevent the fuel going everywhere
Failing the above check timing and we will go from there

[Harky]

Right so got home tonight to look at her.

Put in three different injectors, and one of the old ones, got her started up. Let her get up to running temp. Stopped her and started again, turned over for a couple of seconds and started. Tried it a few times, all seemed good. Left her running while I did a few other things, fans came on a couple of times but brought the temperature down nicely. Thought right, this is grand, I'll go for a drive, check all else is ok.

Next thing she goes real knocky sounding and vibration, drive 100yards and it clears itself again. Go for a drive up and down the road (sorry private driveway) going the best. Come back to the house, park up, thought I'll check this one more time, no start. Pulled all the temp sensors, still nothing. Ran a wire direct to the stop solenoid, still nothing. Pumped the grenade up hard and it was going soft under cranking.

Also checked timing, cam lined up perfect, bottom bolt on pump lined up perfect, top one lined up but wasn't just square enough to screw in easily, not enough to be a tooth out though imo.

So, yeap, well and truly lost now

[Mattcheese31]

Sorry I cba to read back on my phone, did you change the starter motor?

[Harky]

Yeap, starter motor refurbed.

A quick summary

Starts grand when cold but will turn over all day long when hot and won't start, but will start with a bump. So far I have new glow plugs, and checked they get power, got starter refurbed, checked timing, checked compression, checked valve clearances, changed injectors, disconnected all temp sensors, ran wire direct to stop solenoid and I'm still in th same story! Its a running a Bosch pump, cold start cables not connected, and there's no cold advance solenoid on her. Car starts the best cold, and runs the best hot or cold.

[Piggy]

Have you changed the stop solenoid or proven that there is fuel getting to injectors when hot?

[zx_volcane]

It'll be the pump

[Harky]

Haven't changed the stop solenoid, wired it direct and could hear it click, and fuel comes out when u crank with inejectors out and forget to cut the fuel.

Starts ok with a bump when hot so I was reluctant to try the pump, but might try a new pump as I've nothing left to try! Struggle to get my head round what could b wrong with it tho. Standard pump too, ran grand on veg, doesn't like the diesel though!

[welshpug]

ah, its probably fooked if its been run on veg.

[londondan86]

Could be the advance in the pump getting stuck or possibly the vein pump struggling.
Get a fresh jerrycan of derv straight to the pump and see how it goes.

[zx_volcane]

See this, had exact same problem

http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-3057.html

[Harky]

See this, had exact same problem

http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-3057.html

If only I'd seen that a month ago! Cheers

I'll try and get a different pump on at th weekend, then maybe rebuild this one. Thanks very much and I'll report back at th weekend!

[Harky]

So fired a new pump on last night. Provisional results seem good. Starts well when cold, still a bit hesitant when hot, but at least it starts! Also very nice to go from a standard pump back to a modified pump that actually rev's!

I'll see how it goes anyway, tempted to get the injectors refurbed or at least tested, but I'll concentrate on mot first!

Cheers everyone for the help, took a while, but I think we got there in the end!