+- 306oc - Peugeot 306 Owners Club & Forum (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum)
+-- Forum: Engines (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=16)
+--- Forum: XUD Section (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) (/showthread.php?tid=4375)
Pages:
1
2
XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 22-06-2012
Dont be swayed by the title, here me out - and NO spam please.
Background; So, here on the island and especially, my home town (Cowes), it's one of the biggest sailing/yachting areas in the world. I meet a fair few wealthy people and discuss each others lives. Well, a group of men know about me, my car, and what it does/runs on etc.. and got them all thinking.
So, they come up to me and put a proposition forward: what’s the capability of putting this engine in a boat..
Why; the price of fuel for the boats is so expensive, maintenance is extortionate and with a cheap XUD lump, repairs and power delivery can be cheap and respectful; after all, no one is going to SEE the engine, be it a V6 lump, or a cheap XUD lump.
Cost; He's already said for me to check the viability of this idea, he's very enthusiastic about the whole thing, as am i, and the funding isn't a problem. i quote "If you need 1, 2, 3 million, i can get that for you.." actually wanted to punch him at that point, but hey ho.
Fabrication; Again, being the industry that it is, the amount of boat yards around this area is silly, fabricating engine mounts, shafts isn't an issue.
Issue; Now obviously the engine is going to be surrounded by, or at least, exposed to the elements at sea, clearly it wouldn't be submerged, but what issues would i come across when exposing an XUD to the elements. For the turbo, a snorkel inlet wouldn't be a problem, with a backwards inlet (as apposed to the common front facing 4X4 inlets) Cooling, a standard cooling system would suffice? again, what effect would salt air/water have on intercoolers and rads?
I know Srowerll is a yachty and may have some knowledge on this, and i remember seeing DJLobb putting an XUD lump in a boat? did it work? any hiccups? any advice?
Basically, once i have all the information together, i can put this all forward, pass it to the engineers, let them look over it, if it could be a viable business opportunity, he's more than happy to spend his retired days putting his "Amstrad knowledge" into getting this up and running.
I find it INTRIGUING more than anything.
So, what dy'a reckon?
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Matt - 22-06-2012
FLOL give him a quote for 3 million. Go to Peugeot have them build a brand spanking new Xud engine then give him the one from in your car?
In seriousness I don't see how it would work? Surley your goingbto have to have the pedal setup no?(I haven't a clue if boats use gears or wether they are automatic)
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 22-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 03:17 PM)Matt Wrote: In seriousness I don't see how it would work? Surley your goingbto have to have the pedal setup no?(I haven't a clue if boats use gears or wether they are automatic)
pedals only pull cables mate; the same concept can work with levers and such, which boats use... i won't need a brake, its a boat as for the clutch, a manual gearbox and transmissing is achievable - THIS is what makes it unique, DRIVING in the water, rather than riding in an auto-boat, which is far too common.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Eeyore - 22-06-2012
Hello! Right yes awesome Idea and one I have had before. Obviously custom mounts and stuff are needed to put the engine in a boat and it being turbod is epic. What size boat are we looking at here?
Im not sure how the fuel efficiency will work pushing water and i would have thought that standard RPMs are going to be too high and cause cavitation so there will need to be some kind of gearing down however i presume the standard gearbox would do that. From the evinrude engine on my speedboat the throttle is controled by a wire to the control lever in the front so i would have thought attaching the accelerator would be easy. The problem I can see is that normally you push the lever forwards to go and back to reverse so that is the main problem as to how you are going to change gears via a lever. Ideally youd want an automatic gearbox of some kind.
Standard cooling relies on air going pass the radiator so if youre using this out at sea... youre going to get salt in the radiator and a lot of the time you wont be going fast enough for the standard cooling to be used. My engine takes in water from the leg just infront of the propellor and then chucks it out once it has taken the heat away. Some kind of custom cooling would probably be needed to suck in sea water from one side of the boat and chuck it out the other. And then you need to think about how you are going to flush the salt out of the system when the boat isnt in use!
Anyway the engine itself should be awesome but the problem comes with the gears
Also remember weight as if its just plonked in where a lighter engine might be you may end up looking a bit daft! I imagine with the money and engineers behind it that this should all be possible and should be epic!
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Ruan - 22-06-2012
Completely doable. You need to look into marinisation of engines...
Best way to cool them is simply with a water>water exchanger, you cannot run raw seawater through the cooling system, it'll corrode away, so you need two loops, one raw loop and one normal loop.
To start with use the XUD9A - marinize that, then go from there... You can then do a turbo lump, but you'll need to think a lot about the intercooling, you'll probably end up wanting to get another loop going that cools the charge down... Or even having a bigger pump that goes through two heat exchangers, one for the main cooling system, one for the charge cooling loop.
Then you need to work out how you're going to get drive out to a gearbox. Then you need to work out servicing intervals - engines don't like being run flat out for long periods of time, XUDs were never meant to do it from the factory, the Nasp ones will be fine, but the turbo models are a bit highly strung for that, you'll probably find that they will be shagged after a few hundred hours. You might find you'll need to get a pump test bench in and recalibrate the pumps, probably to drop the RPMs mostly, you don't want an XUD9 spinning at 4750rpm all day, it'll pop, you'll probably want to derate the turbo engines to 80hp and get the power out of it at lower RPMs so it can swing a steeper pitch propeller.
Remember, yes they are plentiful, but you can't have one being unreliable. I would say you're talking the standard power figures for the XUD9A if you can get them producing their power at 3500rpm... Drop that to probably 80hp or so or the turbo ones.
For an old reliable engine, they're not bad, but you may want to look at other engines which may be better suited to marine applications... Yanmar are making a 110hp 2.0 16v Turbodiesel - but it makes that power at 3200rpm, of course, you'll be paying Yanmar tax on that because... It's a Yanmar.. Same with Volvo Penta...
Going from what Sam says, the gears are actually really easy, all you do is use a Teleflex controller, which you pull backwards and it yanks a gear lever, then the further you push it it actuates the throttle, middle is neutral, then forwards, it pulls the gear cable into forwards and then the further you push, you get more throttle.
You need a marine gearbox which has one forward gear and one reverse gear and a neutral, in the future you might even look towards a Z-Drive/LegDrive whatever they fancy calling it these days...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 22-06-2012
Awesome info there Rowell, to be fair, all the "unanswerable's " i can chuck to the money bags, and let them ponder over it all.
i think with the torque on the engine, pushing water shouldn't be too much of an issue.
as for the chassis itself, an engineer could deisgn something im sure, with various ballast elements to accomodate for the extra weight.
The cooling is still an issue, though, how would salt water react in a car engine; adopting a standard water pump to pump sea water through the system?
Interesttttting...
Edit (Ruans post) interesting stuff there mate; with the water exchanger, i you talking about a type of heatsink system? bypassing a sea water system along side a standard system, and exchanging heat that way? i dont understand and these looops.. :/
Pumps, lowing RPM's, im sure Dan!/Pump knowledgeables could sort this for a few £££...
As for Yanmar, what we were discussing earlier was taking this away from the usual maritime engines, but to take a cheap and economical engine to save money at sea. I hear endless stories of the price people are paying for boat repairs. There must be a slot this could sit into.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Eeyore - 22-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 03:47 PM)ginge191 Wrote: Awesome info there Rowell, to be fair, all the "unanswerable's " i can chuck to the money bags, and let them ponder over it all.
i think with the torque on the engine, pushing water shouldn't be too much of an issue.
as for the chassis itself, an engineer could deisgn something im sure, with various ballast elements to accomodate for the extra weight.
The cooling is still an issue, though, how would salt water react in a car engine; adopting a standard water pump to pump sea water through the system?
Interesttttting...
the problem with torque isnt that there isnt enough its that you may have to limit it to reduce cavitation the instant you push the lever forwards
Ruan has pretty much got the cooling spot on. You need a fresh water circuit for the engine and then a heat exchanger to transfer the heat to the salt water system.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Ruan - 22-06-2012
Sam ^^ going from what you're saying about torque and cavitation there, you just put a steeper pitch properller on and gear it down...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 22-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 03:54 PM)Ruan Wrote: Sam ^^ going from what you're saying about torque and cavitation there, you just put a steeper pitch properller on and gear it down...
^^^ that was what i was thinking, large propellers to adopt the increase in torque, and yeh about to type out what Ruan said with the pitch.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Ruan - 22-06-2012
And yeah, also going from what Sam is saying about economy - don't think you'll see anything like the economy on road, it's not direct drive!
I expect an XUD9 will actually be fairly uneconomical because at high RPMs they do drink, especially under load...
Imagine that you'll be spinning the engine at 3200rpm all day, but rather than just cruising down the motorway, it's under FULL load at those sorts of RPMs, making boost, moving the water... Imagine that you're under FULL load, going up a hill, at 3200rpm, full torque, they're not that efficient then...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Skank_army - 22-06-2012
In theory, this can work just fine. I helped a guy I used to work for fit a non turbo scooby flat 4 in a fishing boat, it fookin flies along at full chat
There are certain thing that have to be ''marinized'' depending on the set-up. Are you going to keep a closed loop cooling system? If so, how are you going to get airflow to the rad? it is possible and would mean a lot less work on the engine. If you are going to suck in sea water, you will need a marine head gasket, marine water pump, and a few other modifications. As for using a manual box and pedals, this would make things more complicated, is there any need? Why not just use a transfer box?Edit:
Whoops, bit slow there
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - darrenjlobb - 22-06-2012
What Ruan says...there are tonnes of boats with XUD's in....
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 22-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 04:02 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: What Ruan says...there are tonnes of boats with XUD's in....
I've not come across one in the miles of water im surrounded by .. point me in the direction? I saw you've done ONE, but tonnes...?
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Ruan - 22-06-2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxct2ZE1YvU
I'm amazed they're using the stock IC, but yeah...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - thms182 - 22-06-2012
As a fellow caulkhead, I feel it is my duty to poke my nose into this and somehow get involved.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Dave - 22-06-2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2oXdp-9aY4
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 22-06-2012
Very interesting that video Dave, difficult to see how it's pumping water..
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Scott - 22-06-2012
Interesting read! I'll be keeping an eye on this thread
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Niall - 22-06-2012
Very interesting. If you want any help once the build starts, give me a shout
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Dave - 22-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 04:56 PM)ginge191 Wrote: Very interesting that video Dave, difficult to see how it's pumping water..
Where the vac pump normally goes I think... cant imagine why they sacked off the stock one though, it sits all on the cambelt... maybe reliability...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - cully - 22-06-2012
not a chance without armor plating the hull,,you will have to stop all the rods from sinking the boat as they exit the engine
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Jonny81191 - 22-06-2012
You should be able to get around the cooling issue by nicking a water/water heat exchanger from a marine engine. To pump it, you'd use an impeller pump fitted to the aux belt. As far as intercooling goes, you could use another heat exchanger working on a similar procedure.
Most marine diesels, especially in workboats, rarely cruise at more than 2500 rpm, with max rpm being around 3800.
The gearbox.. i know that transit lumps are often marinized, why not have a look at what they are using?
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work out, if money is no object, then just work out what you want and custom build it at any cost!
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - darrenjlobb - 22-06-2012
Wouldnt normally use a gearbox, most just have drive hub welded to flywheel and grommit hub off that...
GT15 + bosch pump would be fine, they just sit under load quite happily...
Two pumps are needed as you have two seperate coolant loops...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - 4WayDiablo - 22-06-2012
Not really read this through but something in the back of my ind tells me this may have already been done
I think most use a water to water cooling rather then a air to water cooling :-)
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Jonny81191 - 22-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 10:21 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: Wouldnt normally use a gearbox, most just have drive hub welded to flywheel and grommit hub off that...
GT15 + bosch pump would be fine, they just sit under load quite happily...
Two pumps are needed as you have two seperate coolant loops...
Agree with two pumps, the aux belt would drive them fine.
A gearbox is needed though, for forwards and reverse.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Stephen - 22-06-2012
Some intersting ideas in this thread! And I'm amazed at the amount of knowledge some of you have on these engines and in general!
Hope it goes well anyway!
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - Ruan - 22-06-2012
Often they're 1:1 drive ratio, but with a transfer box with a reverser in.
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - darrenjlobb - 23-06-2012
Yeh but gearbox is normally irrelivent as thats all part of the boat thats being converted in the prop gear...normally you just have a shaft that needs driving at engine rpm....
I wouldnt use a car gearbox put it that way...
RE: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - ginge191 - 23-06-2012
(22-06-2012, 10:21 PM)darrenjlobb Wrote: Wouldnt normally use a gearbox, most just have drive hub welded to flywheel and grommit hub off that...
surely that would just create a vert little drive from the fly?, not giving much power/torque/water push at all? and be extremely restriced to speed.
I'd think a gearbox would be essential, as you say, perhaps a marine gearbox - generally longer lower gears and short top ends - again, id need to speak with ye'ol sailers round 'ere to see what they use.
Re: XUD boat business - help (Rowell/Lobb?) - darrenjlobb - 23-06-2012
Yes you need a box....that's not what I meant....the box is already on the boat in most cases....as boats have totally different kinda box / drive...so its not normally a concern as you just hook up the prop to the motor...