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+--- Thread: removing PAS (/showthread.php?tid=26097)
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removing PAS - John1.4 - 21-08-2014
my pas pump is dying, and tbh, i'm not that fussed about replacing it, and i've heard of a few just removing the PAS altogether, i just wondered if it is just that simple, i.e - remove the belt, drain the fluid out, remove ram / pump / lines?
and is it possible to remove all that stuff without taking the rack out of the car first?
i have seen the manual racks on fleabay, but i have heard they have more turns lock to lock - truck steering - any thoughts?
RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 21-08-2014
Not sure how you go about it, although I'm sure just removing all the bits with the ram as well would do it, however I have driven a 306 with it removed and it's great
RE: removing PAS - Piggy - 21-08-2014
Take the belt off and drive round the block. You'll soon see how it feels.
I cant help thinking though that for all the effort to remove....you may aswell just find a pump for a tenner and wack it on.
RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 21-08-2014
(21-08-2014, 09:02 PM)Piggy Wrote: Take the belt off and drive round the block. You'll soon see how it feels.
I cant help thinking though that for all the effort to remove....you may aswell just find a pump for a tenner and wack it on.
That's not how it feels. Without the belt you still have to move the ram manually which makes it mega heavy, with the ram removed it's just like a non-PAS car.
RE: removing PAS - Niall - 21-08-2014
(21-08-2014, 09:10 PM)THE_Liam Wrote:(21-08-2014, 09:02 PM)Piggy Wrote: Take the belt off and drive round the block. You'll soon see how it feels.
I cant help thinking though that for all the effort to remove....you may aswell just find a pump for a tenner and wack it on.
That's not how it feels. Without the belt you still have to move the ram manually which makes it mega heavy, with the ram removed it's just like a non-PAS car.
Also a proper non-pas 306 has different camber to lighten it up slightly. Personally out of all the cars I've driven, the best for steering feedback was my 106 which was non PAS shortly followed by the 6 which i love because its PAS when you're dry steering but seems like its not there when moving.
I can see how a lot of people don't like it though and speed variable electronic PAS is starting to match now for that but all the new cars I've driven its always been far too light!
RE: removing PAS - Grant - 21-08-2014
(21-08-2014, 09:21 PM)Niall Wrote:(21-08-2014, 09:10 PM)THE_Liam Wrote:(21-08-2014, 09:02 PM)Piggy Wrote: Take the belt off and drive round the block. You'll soon see how it feels.
I cant help thinking though that for all the effort to remove....you may aswell just find a pump for a tenner and wack it on.
That's not how it feels. Without the belt you still have to move the ram manually which makes it mega heavy, with the ram removed it's just like a non-PAS car.
Also a proper non-pas 306 has different camber to lighten it up slightly. Personally out of all the cars I've driven, the best for steering feedback was my 106 which was non PAS shortly followed by the 6 which i love because its PAS when you're dry steering but seems like its not there when moving.
I can see how a lot of people don't like it though and speed variable electronic PAS is starting to match now for that but all the new cars I've driven its always been far too light!
This. If you have ever been mis-supplied non-P/S ball joints, you will notice you have an alarmingly large amount of positive camber.
Its not all that bad to remove the P/S, but as said, cheaper and easier to just replace the pump. IIRC Jonny11928839028189392921 did a guide on welding up the ram to avoid play and sloppy steering.
RE: removing PAS - Rippthrough - 22-08-2014
Not only do the non-PAS cars have less camber, they also have a lot less castor (the top mounts are at the front of the holes, not the rear), and an oil-tanker like 3.9 turn lock to lock rack.
Anyway, you need to drop the pump, take the ram off, block the pipe holes up on the shuttle housing, and - ideally - take out the shuttle and peg/weld it solid, otherwise you'll have slack around the straight ahead.
RE: removing PAS - Tom - 22-08-2014
Just replace the pump, not worth removing.
RE: removing PAS - Dum-Dum - 22-08-2014
I'm going to disagree with liam and agree with piggy in the main here
I run without PAS and without the pump is really where the steering gets heavy, its barely noticeably lighter once the rest of it is removed.
It really is as simple as drain fluid and remove the gubbins. The ram is surprisingly easy to remove, its just 2 nuts that were made for a flex headed ratchet spanner.
Re: RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
(22-08-2014, 07:48 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: I'm going to disagree with liam and agree with piggy in the main here
I run without PAS and without the pump is really where the steering gets heavy, its barely noticeably lighter once the rest of it is removed.
It really is as simple as drain fluid and remove the gubbins. The ram is surprisingly easy to remove, its just 2 nuts that were made for a flex headed ratchet spanner.
Not being funny mate but you've done something wrong, taking the ram off makes a huge difference, its pretty light without that compared to a lot of non-PAS cars even.
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
306 PAS isn't exactly light anyway, can't see why you'd want to make parking even more difficult!
Especially if you have heavy wheels or fat tyres as well lol.
RE: removing PAS - Jonny81191 - 25-08-2014
The pump, ram, and lines all need to come off and then you really need to do this, to eliminate the slack around straight ahead.
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-18204.html
Re: RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 09:48 AM)Toms306 Wrote: 306 PAS isn't exactly light anyway, can't see why you'd want to make parking even more difficult!Feels far better. More feedback. Plus, it isn't heavy unless you've got skinny noodle arms.
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
Its heavy WITH pas lol, let alone without, and yeah I probably do have skinny noodle arms.
I'm sure its fine while driving, but slow manoeuvres and parking must be near impossible, I hated the lack of PAS on the 106 and that was on skinny 13s! But then I do like squeezing into parallel spaces where the car really doesn't fit and other people wont attempt so I dry steer a lot lol.
RE: removing PAS - Eeyore - 25-08-2014
Just replace the pump. I was without PAS for weeks. It was a good work out but shite to live with. There is a difference between gti6 and other PAS pumps too. GTI6 pump has a smaller pulley so makes the steering lighter!
Re: RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 10:23 AM)Toms306 Wrote: Its heavy WITH pas lol, let alone without, and yeah I probably do have skinny noodle arms.Bloody hell Tom, you know little 5 foot tall women used to drive cars with no PAS right? Power steering isn't a necessity, its a luxury, and on small cars its not even needed.
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
I fail to see how height or sex has anything to do with strength.
It's hardly a luxury these days, not sure theres any cars without PAS being made now. Disc brakes were a luxury 30 years ago, but you wouldn't wanna drive with drums on the front today lol.
Won't be anyones cup of tea on here but I prefer effortless driving...e-PAS, hydro clutch, cable gearshift, light FBW throttle...even things like one touch windows and steering wheel audio controls make a huge difference. You don't NEED half the stuff that's on cars these days, but that's not the point, the point is it makes for a much nicer, more relaxed drive which I think most people would want in a daily...
RE: removing PAS - Jonny81191 - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 01:45 PM)Toms306 Wrote: I fail to see how height or sex has anything to do with strength.
It's hardly a luxury these days, not sure theres any cars without PAS being made now. Disc brakes were a luxury 30 years ago, but you wouldn't wanna drive with drums on the front today lol.
Won't be anyones cup of tea on here but I prefer effortless driving...e-PAS, hydro clutch, cable gearshift, light FBW throttle...even things like one touch windows and steering wheel audio controls make a huge difference. You don't NEED half the stuff that's on cars these days, but that's not the point, the point is it makes for a much nicer, more relaxed drive which I think most people would want in a daily...
You mean people are so used to being spoiled and having their lives made easy for them that they're incapable of doing anything without the tech and gadgets around them?
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 01:54 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote: You mean people are so used to being spoiled and having their lives made easy for them that they're incapable of doing anything without the tech and gadgets around them?
No not really... If the tech's there to make something easier, why wouldn't you use it?
I bet there were guys 100 years ago going 'nope, I'll stick with my horse thanks, yes its difficult, slow, uncomfortable and shits everywhere but these new fangled cars are just too easy and not manly enough'.
RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 01:45 PM)Toms306 Wrote: I fail to see how height or sex has anything to do with strength.
It's hardly a luxury these days, not sure theres any cars without PAS being made now. Disc brakes were a luxury 30 years ago, but you wouldn't wanna drive with drums on the front today lol.
Won't be anyones cup of tea on here but I prefer effortless driving...e-PAS, hydro clutch, cable gearshift, light FBW throttle...even things like one touch windows and steering wheel audio controls make a huge difference. You don't NEED half the stuff that's on cars these days, but that's not the point, the point is it makes for a much nicer, more relaxed drive which I think most people would want in a daily...
So you're no stronger than a 5 foot girl? Nice...
All that crap is just expensive, heavy and easy to break. It detaches you from the driving experience and encourages you to rely on a machine and safety gear rather than your own skill and judgement.
(25-08-2014, 01:54 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote: You mean people are so used to being spoiled and having their lives made easy for them that they're incapable of doing anything without the tech and gadgets around them?
This, pretty much. Went hiking with 2 mates a few years back, I decided to rough it because I couldn't be arsed carrying loads of shit, 1 of my mates decided to try that, the other brought a huge backpack full of gear. Stopped about 7pm the first day, by 8.30pm I had a fire going, a shelter built, a pallet built in it, and was skinning a rabbit for the fire. Did that with a small hatchet, an onion bag and a tent peg. My mate with the tent was fine, but my other mate was begging him for food because he hadn't caught anything with his "trap", and he then decided to sleep under the stars. I woke up and he was in my shelter. It rained
(25-08-2014, 02:02 PM)Toms306 Wrote: I bet there were guys 100 years ago going 'nope, I'll stick with my horse thanks, yes its difficult, slow, uncomfortable and shits everywhere but these new fangled cars are just too easy and not manly enough'.
There are blokes still saying that now. Say you have to travel the Kamchatka peninsula, what you going to take?
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 03:25 PM)THE_Liam Wrote: So you're no stronger than a 5 foot girl? Nice...
Probably not...but why would I need to be? Am I gonna be lifting heavier things than a 5ft woman? Doubt it, so no point putting in effort to gain unnecessary strength.
I don't really go for the whole male constant competition thing...(25-08-2014, 03:25 PM)THE_Liam Wrote: There are blokes still saying that now. Say you have to travel the Kamchatka peninsula, what you going to take?
Judging by the fact that I have no idea where that is, I seriously doubt I'll be needing to go there any time soon! Assuming its some rough place without roads though, I'd take a Hilux...
RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 03:31 PM)Toms306 Wrote: Judging by the fact that I have no idea where that is, I seriously doubt I'll be needing to go there any time soon! Assuming its some rough place without roads though, I'd take a Hilux...
You'd die. No roads, limited fuel, impassable glaciers, wetlands, mountains...
What would you do if the electricity grid failed? What if a solar flare knocked out all the electrics and plunged us into the dark ages? Or a nuclear detonation, that could cause the same?
My point is (there is one I promise), that every little luxury takes you further away from self-sufficiency.
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
Hmm, sounds like a terrible place to live, why not move somewhere with easier access.
But, finally, I do completely agree with you there. I personally, and probably the majority of people could not live self sufficient lives any more. And you are right, we'd all be f*cked if the electricity was permanently cut off, it's used in so many places and industrial processes that the world would come to a standstill... As for your rabbit story above, I come over funny just seeing a dead one in the road, let alone touching it or attempting to eat it!
Fortunately if there was a nuclear detonation none of us would survive that to worry about the effects lol.
However, we're not going to get more self sufficient by removing a few luxuries from cars either...
RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
A nuclear detonation isn't the same as being hit by a nuclear warhead. If a large warhead was detonated at around 20000ft, it would cause an EMP that would disable electronics, without killing anyway. And no, I wouldn't be f*cked, but most people would.
Luckily, my dad is a survivalist (Google it), and my lasses stepdad is a former soldier who completed and then ran training courses in survival and E+E. I completed a trial in the highlands where I lived for 10 days with just a belt knife. I'd recommend it to anyone and everyone, we are all one hot meal away from a revolution.
RE: removing PAS - Toms306 - 25-08-2014
Oh I see, well hopefully that doesn't happen then.
And if there is an apocolyse, everyone now knows to head for your house.
Well, anyone with a horse anyway, cars would be dead. You'd have people so excited about owning an XUD only to find that they cant disable the keypad immob... Anyway...back to PAS...
RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 25-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 04:10 PM)Toms306 Wrote: Oh I see, well hopefully that doesn't happen then.
And if there is an apocolyse, everyone now knows to head for your house.
Anyway...back to PAS...
Won't find me in my house pal, I'll have done one onto the moors with my belt knife, hatchet, bow and quiver and as much iodine and antibiotics as I can carry!
Oh, and with a live wire run from the battery to the stop solenoid, an XUD is EMP-proof
And yeah, back to PAS, slight tangent there sorry
RE: removing PAS - Eeyore - 25-08-2014
if theres an EMP then at least we know where all the dturbos are. Thats the point of the club map right?
RE: removing PAS - eliotrw - 25-08-2014
but but. the emp would kill the car anyway. Aside from the fact that it wouldnt start the pas would work fine
/pedant
Re: RE: removing PAS - THE_Liam - 26-08-2014
(25-08-2014, 10:59 PM)eliotrw Wrote: but but. the emp would kill the car anyway. Aside from the fact that it wouldnt start the pas would work fineEMP wouldn't kill an XUD pal, no ECU. Doesn't even need a battery once it's started.
/pedant
RE: removing PAS - cully - 26-08-2014
(26-08-2014, 05:31 AM)THE_Liam Wrote: EMP wouldn't kill an XUD pal, no ECU. Doesn't even need a battery once it's started.
electronics in the altornator that charges said battery would die
so you statement is not quit right as it would run for a while till the battery was dead
you could remove the stop solinoid then rely on stalling it to stop the engine, then its a simple bump start