+- 306oc - Peugeot 306 Owners Club & Forum (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum)
+-- Forum: Other Marques (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=38)
+--- Forum: Projects (https://www.306oc.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=39)
+--- Thread: MG ZR: Cams & Maps (/showthread.php?tid=14360)
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Poodle - 17-10-2013
Carbs? You're a few years behind there fella, if you reckon vvcs cool you should check out efi! :p
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - devils_fuel - 17-10-2013
(17-10-2013, 08:34 PM)Poodle Wrote: Carbs? You're a few years behind there fella, if you reckon vvcs cool you should check out efi! :p
apologies wrong terminology used.... my 'roll up' kicked in
he should change back the TB and retest
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Piggy - 17-10-2013
hmmm 140bhp....not quite '6 beating power
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 17-10-2013
(17-10-2013, 08:55 PM)Piggy Wrote: hmmm 140bhp....not quite '6 beating power
No.. I know
Kind of running out of resources for this now, spending over £100 on rolling roads and the like in less than a week to be told "don't use asda fuel" and not learning what's the cause of the main problems has put me in a tricky position of do I keep spending money and never find the problem or is it just something simple
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - procta - 17-10-2013
we will get there steve,
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Piggy - 17-10-2013
Have you been able to find out what other rover 1.8 vvc ACTUALLY make bhp wise??
I know some manufacturer bhps are a bit optimistic
then theres factoring loss of bhp due to millage/wear
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - procta - 18-10-2013
(17-10-2013, 10:41 PM)Piggy Wrote: Have you been able to find out what other rover 1.8 vvc ACTUALLY make bhp wise??
I know some manufacturer bhps are a bit optimistic
then theres factoring loss of bhp due to millage/wear
the older vvc units, are 143 bhp. mine is a "160" block with the ealier engine managment system etc, as its better system than the later one, for taking the mods wise.
i did have both systems, but i wont clog up steves thread with my experince.
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 18-10-2013
(17-10-2013, 10:41 PM)Piggy Wrote: Have you been able to find out what other rover 1.8 vvc ACTUALLY make bhp wise??
I know some manufacturer bhps are a bit optimistic
then theres factoring loss of bhp due to millage/wear
It's tricky trying to get information from a rover forum but from what I can find though a few people in 2008/9 did 160 rolling roads.
one with a backbox and open induction kit got 159bhp
another with janspeed backbox, mid section, sports cat, 4-2-1 jan manifold plus open cone got 177bhp atf
the final one from 2008 was just a backbox and got 159 atf
http://www.themgzr.co.uk/vb/12-general-mg-zr-discussion/76502-anyone-ran-160-rolling-road-2.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT8tLtUSBWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG27Cnr8Ja8
So it doesn't seem like rover were far off with the figures.
but would I really be down 20bhp from wear and tear on a 64k engine?
(18-10-2013, 12:12 AM)procta Wrote: the older vvc units, are 143 bhp. mine is a "160" block with the ealier engine managment system etc, as its better system than the later one, for taking the mods wise.
i did have both systems, but i wont clog up steves thread with my experince.
Mems 2? I thought mems3 would be better due to a couple more sensors and remap ability?
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Poodle - 18-10-2013
Tbh mate, whatever is said about manufacturers claims being optimistic etc, losing 20bhp is a significant amount that would imply a bigger problem. Best way to sort it out would be with a specialist, especially if you're keepimg it long term and want to stay NA. Getting another engine as a donor would be cheaper, but require a lot more work from you/me/anyone else daft enough to get involved and be a bigger risk (possibility of buying a duffer etc). Depends where your priorities lie.
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - procta - 18-10-2013
(18-10-2013, 12:26 PM)lolsteve Wrote:(17-10-2013, 10:41 PM)Piggy Wrote: Have you been able to find out what other rover 1.8 vvc ACTUALLY make bhp wise??
I know some manufacturer bhps are a bit optimistic
then theres factoring loss of bhp due to millage/wear
It's tricky trying to get information from a rover forum but from what I can find though a few people in 2008/9 did 160 rolling roads.
one with a backbox and open induction kit got 159bhp
another with janspeed backbox, mid section, sports cat, 4-2-1 jan manifold plus open cone got 177bhp atf
the final one from 2008 was just a backbox and got 159 atf
http://www.themgzr.co.uk/vb/12-general-mg-zr-discussion/76502-anyone-ran-160-rolling-road-2.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT8tLtUSBWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG27Cnr8Ja8
So it doesn't seem like rover were far off with the figures.
but would I really be down 20bhp from wear and tear on a 64k engine?
(18-10-2013, 12:12 AM)procta Wrote: the older vvc units, are 143 bhp. mine is a "160" block with the ealier engine managment system etc, as its better system than the later one, for taking the mods wise.
i did have both systems, but i wont clog up steves thread with my experince.
Mems 2? I thought mems3 would be better due to a couple more sensors and remap ability?
no not really, the mems3 is more hot on emissons, compaired to the mems2 system. I know the mems2 system is a better injection system, well injectors are.
also the mems 2 system responses better to breathing and exhaust mods than the later system you have, proberly why some complain about de catting a mems3 car doesn't run well. mine seems to pull really hard, as that's using the rover metro gti Decat system, ( car is on a J plater)
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 18-10-2013
(18-10-2013, 12:41 PM)Poodle Wrote: Tbh mate, whatever is said about manufacturers claims being optimistic etc, losing 20bhp is a significant amount that would imply a bigger problem. Best way to sort it out would be with a specialist, especially if you're keepimg it long term and want to stay NA. Getting another engine as a donor would be cheaper, but require a lot more work from you/me/anyone else daft enough to get involved and be a bigger risk (possibility of buying a duffer etc). Depends where your priorities lie.Yea there is something amiss, or possibly a couple of things adding up.
A thought occurred to me today in lectures while day dreaming, would the leaking rocker gasket thing which is leaking oil into the spark plugs be messing up the timing. Since oil doesn't burn as well as petrol(I assume) so the mix of petrol/oil/air is not burning as nicely as it should.
Also forgot that whilst as rstuning they noticed two of the middle rocker cover bolts were not even hand tight which might explain some leakage into the spark plug chambers
(18-10-2013, 03:34 PM)procta Wrote: no not really, the mems3 is more hot on emissons, compaired to the mems2 system. I know the mems2 system is a better injection system, well injectors are.Interesting, would make sense if it's a simpler system that's not being all twisted by nasty emission problems. Are the early injectors more flow or something then? People say the decat thing is about exhaust scavenging ?
also the mems 2 system responses better to breathing and exhaust mods than the later system you have, proberly why some complain about de catting a mems3 car doesn't run well. mine seems to pull really hard, as that's using the rover metro gti Decat system, ( car is on a J plater)
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Toms306 - 18-10-2013
Spark plugs have to seal well enough to hold compression in the cylinder...if they were 'loose' enough to allow oil to leak past them you'd have bigger problems tbh.
Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Jonny b - 18-10-2013
Has the headgasket ever been done?
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 18-10-2013
6 months before purchase apparently. Since then been gentle with driving cold and seen no signs for failure e.g loss of compression/oil burning/mayo etc
Might just do rocker gasket see if the oil stops
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Jonny81191 - 18-10-2013
(18-10-2013, 05:16 PM)Toms306 Wrote: Spark plugs have to seal well enough to hold compression in the cylinder...if they were 'loose' enough to allow oil to leak past them you'd have bigger problems tbh.
Agreed, and if they were that loose, then I'd say lack of compression is your problem
Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Jonny b - 18-10-2013
I have been speaking to my mate today ɑnd he recons, either the the timings out, or the the vvc hasn't been put back in properly! If the head gaskets been done then the head has been totally stripped if ιt has been faced!! They have 2 vanos units, ɑnd if the shafts have not been fitted correctly for the 2 stage cams then they will sort themselves out under normal driving but when the vvc kicks in they are out! Hard to explain through typing words! He said check timings right first! If not then head has to come of ɑnd vvc needs checking, fuel will not make that much of a difference
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 18-10-2013
(18-10-2013, 07:48 PM)Jonny81191 Wrote: Agreed, and if they were that loose, then I'd say lack of compression is your problemhaha yea, wouldn't there be a problem of leaking exhaust gases melting the ht leads?
(18-10-2013, 08:03 PM)Jonny b Wrote: I have been speaking to my mate today ɑnd he recons, either the the timings out, or the the vvc hasn't been put back in properly! If the head gaskets been done then the head has been totally stripped if ιt has been faced!! They have 2 vanos units, ɑnd if the shafts have not been fitted correctly for the 2 stage cams then they will sort themselves out under normal driving but when the vvc kicks in they are out! Hard to explain through typing words! He said check timings right first! If not then head has to come of ɑnd vvc needs checking, fuel will not make that much of a difference
Sounds about right, things are pointing to timing being out. Even rstuning admitted it felt like it. I'll whip the covers off tomorrow and get some photos of the cams since I was planning on replacing the gasket anyway.
I do think I get what you're on about with the timing...kind of. Does the head need to come off to time the vvc then? Can buy a recon head with the vvc all timed up for £250 but would like to avoid if possible
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Poodle - 19-10-2013
It won't be oil leaking past the plugs lol. That recon head is sounding like the best option atm, could always make £100 back as selling yours as requiring timing.
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Dum-Dum - 19-10-2013
I'm not so sure the head is the issue. Id try taking apart the VVC mech to make sure its all working as it should first.
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 19-10-2013
Bearing in mind I've never timed up a solid cam head a vvc should be interesting. Suppose if I take the top off I can at least get a looksee in there see whats going on
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Poodle - 19-10-2013
Don't you need some special tooling for timing vvc mechs?
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Tom - 19-10-2013
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?p=1940938
http://www.touchepower.talktalk.net/VVC_Timing.htm
Any help?
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - procta - 19-10-2013
(18-10-2013, 08:03 PM)Jonny b Wrote: I have been speaking to my mate today ɑnd he recons, either the the timings out, or the the vvc hasn't been put back in properly! If the head gaskets been done then the head has been totally stripped if ιt has been faced!! They have 2 vanos units, ɑnd if the shafts have not been fitted correctly for the 2 stage cams then they will sort themselves out under normal driving but when the vvc kicks in they are out! Hard to explain through typing words! He said check timings right first! If not then head has to come of ɑnd vvc needs checking, fuel will not make that much of a difference
jon, you don't dismantle the vvc side of these at all, these engines should be treated like the rest of the k series family,
shouldn't be any need to touch the vvc system anyway.
could be a tooth out, also these are not as forgiving if badly timed.
I hope the person whos done the head gasket hasn't damaged the pickup cam,
as that's what happened to my old f*cked vvc, that's what blew the whisle, that my engine had been f*cked with, found a chewed head bolt, so we gave up on the engine.
Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Jonny b - 19-10-2013
Erm procta! He said the headgasket had been done did he not? How did they skim the head if they didn't dismantle the vvc??
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - 306Dan - 19-10-2013
(19-10-2013, 02:27 PM)Jonny b Wrote: Erm procta! He said the headgasket had been done did he not? How did they skim the head if they didn't dismantle the vvc??
with an angle grinder?? ..... sorry someone had to say it
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - procta - 19-10-2013
(19-10-2013, 02:27 PM)Jonny b Wrote: Erm procta! He said the headgasket had been done did he not? How did they skim the head if they didn't dismantle the vvc??
the head might not have had a skim jonny, as people don't always skim the heads on these,
Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Jonny b - 19-10-2013
I know that procta bud, all I was saying that if the timings right then next port of call ιs the vvc setup, most people will say if the gaskets gone, then skim the head, ιt will only be garages that know mg's that would know otherwise! Ɑnd if a garage has had the head skimmed then ιt will have stripped the head! No other way! Ιts very easy to get ιt wrong when putting ιt back
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - procta - 19-10-2013
(19-10-2013, 10:02 PM)Jonny b Wrote: I know that procta bud, all I was saying that if the timings right then next port of call ιs the vvc setup, most people will say if the gaskets gone, then skim the head, ιt will only be garages that know mg's that would know otherwise! Ɑnd if a garage has had the head skimmed then ιt will have stripped the head! No other way! Ιts very easy to get ιt wrong when putting ιt back
yeah that's true jonny, only thing that's bugging me, is if they have got the timing wrong, the vvc pickup on the inlet gearbox side, may have been damaged. as mine was, due to how they forced the engine bolt.
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - lolsteve - 20-10-2013
Whats the vvc pickup then? the sensor to tell it when to kick in?
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID001201 is it on here?
RE: Project Beat a GTi6 (140bhp & wobbly torque) - Dum-Dum - 20-10-2013
Been doing some reading for you Steve cos I'm nice like that and it appears that the VVC system doesn't work unless the oil is up to temperature. As such do you know where the oil temp sensor is, is it working, have you checked live data from it etc?