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+--- Thread: Help, broke down! (/showthread.php?tid=13699)
RE: Help, broke down! - Jonny81191 - 15-05-2013
Yeah, if it starts it should stay running, you never know!
And you might have to drag it a fair way in gear before it fires, like a couple of hundred metres
RE: Help, broke down! - Poodle - 16-05-2013
Was just going to say that, sometimes we have to run things up on brake cleaner for a good few minutes before they'll run by themselves.
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
If it does fire tho then what could that possibly mean? Do you think if I try with easy start and keep the revs up it might work?
RE: Help, broke down! - Poodle - 16-05-2013
It may well do, often does the job at work if we're having trouble with one. Tends to mean the ecu has temporarily had a tantrum and just needs a bit of encouragement.
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
It wont tick over no matter how much I give it
Really am stumped.
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 16-05-2013
Right, what do we know so far? The low pressure pump works yes? The high pressure pump works yes? There must be compression if you're getting it to run briefly on brake cleaner or whatever.
So it can ONLY be a sensor or injector fault now, unless I'm missing something?
You've also tested the cam sensor and crank sensor yes?
Actually, reading back, you said you 'tested' the fuel pump by popping the pipe off the fuel filter housing and fuel was already there?
That doesn't prove the pump works tbh. Can you hear it when you turn the ignition on?
Re: RE: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
(16-05-2013, 05:16 PM)Toms306 Wrote: Right, what do we know so far? The low pressure pump works yes? The high pressure pump works yes? There must be compression if you're getting it to run briefly on brake cleaner or whatever.
So it can ONLY be a sensor or injector fault now, unless I'm missing something?
You've also tested the cam sensor and crank sensor yes?
Actually, reading back, you said you 'tested' the fuel pump by popping the pipe off the fuel filter housing and fuel was already there?
That doesn't prove the pump works tbh. Can you hear it when you turn the ignition on?
Right so I can hear the low pressure pump and get fuel so thats ok
I am getting fuel to the injectors so im assuming the high pressure pump is ok? Plus the fpr and frps checks out ok.!
Crank sensor defiantly reads the correct resistance so that's ok.
Just changed the cam sensor so thats ok.
Thinking maybe injectors, any way to test them on the car?
Edit. Right I have just tested the relay module and between pin 11 and 2 I am getting a connection but 0 resistance. Correct me if im wrong but it shouldn't make a connection while the isnt the battery connected? Just like the others with ni power connected?
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 16-05-2013
Hmm, yeah from that autodatat sheet there should be infinite resistance without the battery connected.
I'm not even sure which relay that is though, what's it for?
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
Sorry ignore that last post . There is infinite resistance it was me on the wrong pin.
Thinking the injectors now.
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 16-05-2013
Ah ok, injectors 'should' bring up a code if they're faulty though.
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
Well defiantly wasnt one
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 16-05-2013
No, maybe there isn't always, just said there 'should' be lol. But you're running out of things to try now!
How about rail pressure? It wont start without enough pressure, so have you tested the switch/checked the pressure reading?
RE: Help, broke down! - Poodle - 16-05-2013
Injectors will bring up p0230 if they're knackered, very unlikely it'd stop the car from starting if there's no code. You could do a leak-back test on them, details are in that thread i mentioned, two secs and i'll get the link.
Have you still got a mate coming this weekend with pp2k?
EDIT: Tom, he's checked the voltage on the frps and it's reading fine - it has full pressure and should run.
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-1497.html
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 16-05-2013
(16-05-2013, 06:49 PM)Poodle Wrote: EDIT: Tom, he's checked the voltage on the frps and it's reading fine - it has full pressure and should run.
That's the one on the HP pump isn't it? I mean the one on the rail itself, I know the ECU won't let it start if theres not enough rail pressure.
Re: RE: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
(16-05-2013, 06:49 PM)Poodle Wrote: Injectors will bring up p0230 if they're knackered, very unlikely it'd stop the car from starting if there's no code. You could do a leak-back test on them, details are in that thread i mentioned, two secs and i'll get the link.
Have you still got a mate coming this weekend with pp2k?
EDIT: Tom, he's checked the voltage on the frps and it's reading fine - it has full pressure and should run.
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-1497.html
Have read through the thred mate although I may do the leak off test.
(16-05-2013, 06:57 PM)Toms306 Wrote:(16-05-2013, 06:49 PM)Poodle Wrote: EDIT: Tom, he's checked the voltage on the frps and it's reading fine - it has full pressure and should run.
That's the one on the HP pump isn't it? I mean the one on the rail itself, I know the ECU won't let it start if theres not enough rail pressure.
I have tested both tom mate. Fpr and the frps fuel rail pressure sensor and they check out.
Might just sell the bloody thing or break it and buy a different car in the mean time as I need a car.
RE: Help, broke down! - Jonny81191 - 16-05-2013
Seriously have you dragged it several hundred metres down the road, IN gear, foot OFF the clutch, fresh battery with ignition ON, spinning it over at about 2k rpm?
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
Can't get a tow mate. Why do you think that might get it started?
RE: Help, broke down! - Jonny81191 - 16-05-2013
Yes. I really think it's worth a go. You'll need a tow though, a bump start wouldn't do it
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
Whats the reason why you think it may work tho mate?
RE: Help, broke down! - Jonny81191 - 16-05-2013
Basically it'll make the ecu think the car's running as opposed to trying to start, I've known it happen before on cars when a good fast tow has started it and it's been ok after that.
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 16-05-2013
Ok mate I will try my best at getting a tow.
Cheers
RE: Help, broke down! - Poodle - 16-05-2013
Tom, as baxter says, the frps is the one on the rail (Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor).
Towing works on the same principle as brake cleaner... still, got to be worth a go though, this is getting silly lol.
Hope you don't give up on it mate, was a tidy car from what i can remember.
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 17-05-2013
(16-05-2013, 10:00 PM)Poodle Wrote: Tom, as baxter says, the frps is the one on the rail (Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor).
I didn't even think of that, just assumed you'd made a typo!
My bad...As you say though, is getting silly now!
RE: Help, broke down! - DaveW - 17-05-2013
This sounds like what happend to Kent's 306? does it not..? he never manged to fix his tho
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 17-05-2013
(17-05-2013, 01:48 PM)DaveW Wrote: This sounds like what happend to Kent's 306? does it not..? he never manged to fix his tho
I thought this the other day, but as his battery had been off for a clutch change its not quite the same cause.
There are many other hdis with this issue on Google....but as I said before, no-one ever says how (or if) they fixed it!!
I'm begining to wonder if the HDi immobiliser stops the injectors firing. On the petrols it stops the fuel pump (afaik) but as there seems to be no physical issues here, an immobiliser could cause the cranking without start. Something to do with the shock force on the bsi as he braked perhaps...hmmm... Just thinking aloud really as I'm not sure what you can try now tbh.
Out of interest....could you try something? Whip the black box out of the key fob, keep it somewhere safe, but away from the car.
Try to start the car and see if the fuel pump still works like that...
Re: RE: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 17-05-2013
(17-05-2013, 02:22 PM)Toms306 Wrote:(17-05-2013, 01:48 PM)DaveW Wrote: This sounds like what happend to Kent's 306? does it not..? he never manged to fix his tho
I thought this the other day, but as his battery had been off for a clutch change its not quite the same cause.
There are many other hdis with this issue on Google....but as I said before, no-one ever says how (or if) they fixed it!!
I'm begining to wonder if the HDi immobiliser stops the injectors firing. On the petrols it stops the fuel pump (afaik) but as there seems to be no physical issues here, an immobiliser could cause the cranking without start. Something to do with the shock force on the bsi as he braked perhaps...hmmm... Just thinking aloud really as I'm not sure what you can try now tbh.
Out of interest....could you try something? Whip the black box out of the key fob, keep it somewhere safe, but away from the car.
Try to start the car and see if the fuel pump still works like that...
Thought this at work today actually mate. Will try it at the filter and crack one 1 of the injectors and try there too.
Right so got fuel to the filter and to the injectors without the fob near the car. Also seem to of got the same voltage to the injectors as with the fob although I don't know if it's the correct voltage? !
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 17-05-2013
Ah, so, immobilised you're getting the exact same results? Hmm, maybe on to something!
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 17-05-2013
What you thinking? Isn't there any way of bypassing the immobiliser or at least testing it?
Could a vacuum leak stop it from starting?
RE: Help, broke down! - Toms306 - 17-05-2013
Vacuum leak can't stop it starting no...there's only vaccuum to the egr or brake servo anyway.
I'm not sure how to bypass the immob on hdis tbh, I guess you could swap the ecu/bsi with a set from another car, but that's obviously not cheap and only trial and error. Maybe one of the electrical people will be more help!
Cully reckons pug planet can tell you if the immobiliser is unlocking....is there anyone local to you with pp?
Re: Help, broke down! - tbaxter08700 - 18-05-2013
Well got someone who maybe be able to get tomorrow with pp2k so lets hope he finds something. Dont know tho tbh!