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+--- Thread: Project 16v #theLEMOAN (/showthread.php?tid=33471)
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Paul Baldwin - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 06:39 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: A log manifold is the worst type of manifold for power.
I suppose with all the effort and attention to detail that's going into this I'd just expected the manifold to be done to the same standard.
Me too tbh. It doesn't have to be a tuned, equal length manifold either tho imo, an un-equal length with a shallow enough collector should be perfectly adequate and not cause too much turbulence/restriction to flow. As said, use seamless/thickwall if you can. Tom was given a chrome finish cheap manifold that was seemed and thin wall that I cut up to make his. Saved a lot in materials at the time but has been a ball-ache ever since.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Stef205 - 12-01-2017
The collector and ports are where power is made or lost. If the collector shape is crap you may aswell not bother. Log manifold....may aswell use a standard item.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Piggy - 12-01-2017
I've asked admin to lock this.
Sick of this forum and its negativity.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Mattcheese31 - 13-01-2017
Don't think it's negativity, just a valid question, guess you're not about all out power on this one... Your dummy is on it's way back to you via parcel force
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Matt-Rallye - 13-01-2017
Just read it through,
All i can see is people asking a valid question, getting a cryptic one word response (which most would view as negativity) and giving their opinion on the matter.
Any build as popular as this one is going to attract some criticism
smile about it and keep cracking with what your doing piggy!
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Jonny81191 - 13-01-2017
Interesting.. I spent lots of time looking at manifold design last night, ready to offer my opinion that actually, whilst not perfect, a log manifold is actually going to be the better option for this build. But as you can't be bothered to fight your own corner, I certainly won't be doing it for you. Grow up. People will always find things to disagree over, and throwing your toys out of the pram won't help. If you don't like it, don't post your work on the Internet.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Eeyore - 13-01-2017
It doesnt really matter. Do a log one for now cheap and easy and if its an issue fit a fancy one later!
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - tigerstyle - 13-01-2017
Aren't MCM all about the log? (Far from technically accurate anywhere though, still enjoy it however!)
For the DIY builder I've understood it as the way to go.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Ruan - 13-01-2017
I'd be really interested to see realistically what difference a manifold would make on these... From my experience:
A. We're talking low levels of power here - ~250hp tops.
B. Low engine speed - the effects of pulse tuning are negligible anyway as pulses are so spread apart, the primary length has to be so long it's barely worth bothering with.
C. It's an HDi - soon as you've a bigger turbo on, you're invariably limited by fuel supply in a decent window rather than more air in the engine.
D. The money spent £/hp or £/cfm improvement in gas flow through the engine will be so low from a log manifold to a perfectly tuned length beautiful manifold that it's just not worth it. That money is far, far better spent on getting some big injectors in, or a bigger CR pump.
E. If Piggy finds find that there's serious issues with getting gas in/out the engine, it can be changed - that can go down on paper as something discovered... Why is getting things wrong and learning a huge issue?! It's just because it's not what you're "supposed" to do when making a manifold - it does look agricultural at best, but meh?! It's also a diesel Peugeot 306...
F. It's more than most of the rest of the forum have actually done - most of the above is keyboard warrior youtube comments.
G. Who cares anyway.
Of course Piggy could just have not posted it online, nobody would be any the wiser and there'd be beers all around... This forum does make me laugh.
Project 16v #theLEMOAN - deggerz - 13-01-2017
Whilst I agree with you Ruan, all this forum bangs on about is efficiency ranges etc etc, piggy being one of main people that bleet on about efficiency, so when he decides to use a log manifold people are going to ask questions as to why as it's not the most efficient way of doing things..., whilst I agree it'll work and make good power and as I've stated above I don't know where he's actually wanting to go with it, if it'll do the job fair enough, but if you're looking for the best out of it. It's not the way
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Whilst I agree with you Ruan, all this forum bangs on about is efficiency ranges etc etc, piggy being one of main people that bleet on about efficiency, so when he decides to use a log manifold people are going to ask questions as to why as it's not the most efficient way of doing things..., whilst I agree it'll work and make good power and as I've stated above I don't know where he's actually wanting to go with it, if it'll do the job fair enough, but if you're looking for the best out of it. It's not the way
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RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Mattcheese31 - 13-01-2017
You're all missing the point, James is an attention whore, I'm quite sure he's rubbing his hands right now
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Ruan - 13-01-2017
Why aren't we installing knife edged cranks, 2300bar commonrail system with piezo injectors, CP4.x pumps... You make do with what you've got - you spend the money where it counts. The best turbochargers will make up for any lacking in the manifold department - if we find that EMPs are up through the roof at high RPM and mass flow rate not increasing, we'll know there's an issue.
I know the "efficiency" thing is pretty much dig at me... From my experience people discuss things they don't understand and take the word "efficiency" well out of context because "I did this and look at the dyno figures"... Take a leaf out the OEMs book - x35d uses a log manifold with a 4+2 design, 3.0 V6 TDi uses two log manifolds with a link pipe! Worst design going by what you'd read on the internet! Yeah, >400HP isn't a problem with an upgraded compressor wheel/turbo... OEMs _still_ use log manifolds on their highest performing diesels without any problems. I'm not going to deny that a better design wouldn't be better, however in the grand scheme of things, there's other problem areas that you'd work on first before worrying about exhaust manifold design.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Mattcheese31 - 13-01-2017
Yes but and this is aimed at everyone, it's just individual opinions, there's no need for anyone to get so het up about it, there isn't a problem until people start acting like it's blob week
x
Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Sambarker - 13-01-2017
I'm looking forward to assembling my own log manifold. Out of mild steel. Who gives a f*ck?
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RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - unclebeast - 13-01-2017
Hey lads...I don`t even know what a log manifold is, or does...but piggy is having a crack at making a poor car good...cut him some slack eh...In the spirit of our shared interest...
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Magenta Sunset - 13-01-2017
(13-01-2017, 03:08 PM)unclebeast Wrote: Hey lads...I don`t even know what a log manifold is, or does...but piggy is having a crack at making a poor car good...cut him some slack eh...In the spirit of our shared interest...hear, hear!
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Paul Baldwin - 13-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 09:46 PM)Piggy Wrote: I've asked admin to lock this.
Sick of this forum and its negativity.
Sorry if you read my post as being negative? It wasn't meant to be. I was trying to give you another affordable option, keeping gas flow and velocity up and not worrying about tuned pulses and chasing ultimate power as it's not a high revving NA lump. Tom's since found a good source of various bends you can buy to use. Not cut up two existing manifolds with an angle grinder and then clean up all the bits to piece back together like I had to.
Project 16v #theLEMOAN - bashbarnard - 14-01-2017
Right can we swiftly move on lol. His got a log mainfold. There are diffrent views. Weve all said itll work.
Whats next on the agenda. Gotta be nearing a first start?
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RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Piggy - 09-04-2017
It's been a while. Realise not everyone is obsessed with instaface. So I thought a couple of people may want to revel in my misery on here.
Lets bullet point it...then you can stare and zoom and wonder at random pictures...
- made epic 3" downpipe and exhaust
- made oil pressure
- bought new battery
- she would not start.
- silly error in wiring, temp sensor and FPR have identical plugs...fixed that
- assumed other bad wiring...fixed that
- still wouldn't start
- realised the chuffing smoke was actually a duff injector just pouring fuel in
- 8v hdi and 16v hdi cam pulleys are not the same (although time up identically)
- she ran...... on 3, a bad random noise was heard...
- then 2, then the next day just 1
- then would not turn over
- catastrophic engine damage had occurred
- three broken valves. damaged two pistons. 6 broken rockers.
- Jury still out on why. what. how.
- Feel very low and well, just crappy.
I have not seen valves snap off so cleanly just below the colletts in the way they did. Timing was bang on. All piston/valve damage is after the fact.
Currently the top theories are: the head had a belt snap in its history and caused weaknesses now exploited by the heavier valve springs. The heavier valve springs have not been made correctly/too heavy seating pressure.
Head currently being repaired (needs a skim and a stem guide) and then off to motorsport company who sorted valve springs for testing.... I really need to know why this has happened to ensure it doesnt again....and for sake of others with same valve springs...although Alex "Tiggy" seen in pics with exhaust got same springs from same source but fitment and measurements appear to be different...
Pics:
![[Image: 16463273_619486504919691_766166564624798...e=595A24E7]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16463273_619486504919691_766166564624798386_o.jpg?oh=764f32c583c8f699c9db4461eb93c0f8&oe=595A24E7)
![[Image: 16665275_619486394919702_582433651781396...e=5998BC9D]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16665275_619486394919702_582433651781396896_o.jpg?oh=e6158aa3fc6e969bfc5a460e430043df&oe=5998BC9D)
![[Image: 16992050_630881253780216_264067747106107...e=5986AD69]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16992050_630881253780216_2640677471061077074_o.jpg?oh=7c8c053015dcbde5b308ae4f27b18994&oe=5986AD69)
![[Image: 17637198_646260395575635_723296281076365...e=5991AF5C]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17637198_646260395575635_7232962810763651953_o.jpg?oh=14cba56df82f5be3253e1b2a3858be0a&oe=5991AF5C)
![[Image: 17758202_646260652242276_706591796377088...e=59576F94]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17758202_646260652242276_7065917963770883281_o.jpg?oh=ebfda67b7e4f85c869a148af5c4c16ee&oe=59576F94)
![[Image: 17635322_646260798908928_634931853782189...e=594CC219]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17635322_646260798908928_6349318537821897460_o.jpg?oh=1c47b88397ca81dcc7b974b6f1504028&oe=594CC219)
![[Image: 17758486_646260935575581_369675257965165...e=594F44FD]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17758486_646260935575581_3696752579651653015_o.jpg?oh=3bf4b0c79bdedd08824cf719573717d6&oe=594F44FD)
![[Image: 17760962_646829042185437_606195178576475...e=5957AC6C]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17760962_646829042185437_606195178576475143_o.jpg?oh=10e72fc61b57b7b78f049146bc5f4e51&oe=5957AC6C)
![[Image: 17493229_646829375518737_181582782961028...e=595665FF]](https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17493229_646829375518737_1815827829610280831_o.jpg?oh=34114aecfffbea4b8065f7e7cbab1d70&oe=595665FF)
On the positive side, a few known members and few non members heard of my misery and have simply been heroes.
I was genuinely just so close to giving up tbh.
But people have rallied round with advice, parts and their time.... you know who you are....you know your level of heroism.
June 1st. This thing gets taxed and MOT'd. It has to. Just...has to.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Eeyore - 09-04-2017
Good work but shame about the accident. Good stuff as always mate.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Piggy - 09-04-2017
(09-04-2017, 09:23 PM)Eeyore Wrote: Good work but shame about the accident. Good stuff as always mate.
Accident means no one is to blame... Didnt you watch hot fuzz?
Something happened... Needs to be found.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Eeyore - 09-04-2017
(09-04-2017, 09:31 PM)Piggy Wrote:(09-04-2017, 09:23 PM)Eeyore Wrote: Good work but shame about the accident. Good stuff as always mate.
Accident means no one is to blame... Didnt you watch hot fuzz?
Something happened... Needs to be found.
Looks like the valves started over here...and ended up... Over there.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Piggy - 09-04-2017
Always wanted to be a policemanofficer.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Eeyore - 09-04-2017
(09-04-2017, 10:06 PM)Piggy Wrote:
Always wanted to be a policemanofficer.
What happened Danny?
Diesel valve incident...
Hell of a way to go!
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Piggy - 09-04-2017
#thegreatergood
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Dave - 10-04-2017
Building custom performance engines, sometime there are massive wins, and sometimes there are massive fails.
Have to take the rough with the smooth, and take risk.
Fair play for putting images and results up, happens to everyone but not all would share.
That being said, dont give up, still have short block and head is salvageable and highlighted some issues that other people may encounter further down the line to learn to learn from a few.
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Matt-Rallye - 10-04-2017
Glad to see this going ahead at full steam
minor / major setbacks will happen but its part of the risk we take!(09-04-2017, 10:38 PM)Eeyore Wrote:(09-04-2017, 10:06 PM)Piggy Wrote:
Always wanted to be a policemanofficer.
What happened Danny?
Diesel valve incident...
Hell of a way to go!
(09-04-2017, 10:40 PM)Piggy Wrote:
#thegreatergood
Reading this has brightened my day no end
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Dum-Dum - 12-04-2017
Hot Fuzz quotes FTW
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Paul_13 - 12-04-2017
![[Image: 429b43ce843bbb8d6c4c815b98ac9287_zpsfwwoiszj.jpg]](http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/paul13205/media/429b43ce843bbb8d6c4c815b98ac9287_zpsfwwoiszj.jpg.html)
RE: Project 16v #theLEMOAN - Piggy - 12-04-2017
Two knackered pistons removed. Two replacements in.
Head awaiting repair.