As above... any knowledge?
Basically because of the torsion bars
If you want to get rid of it and make the back a little more stable and predictable on the edge then solid rear beam mounts Aparently help it/ get rid of it
Hmm interesting stuff, never heard of passive steering.
Does this mean that all torsion bar'd vehicles have passive rear wheel steering given the way the lateral forces impact on the rear suspension setup??
(05-11-2012, 06:39 PM)ginge191 Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm interesting stuff, never heard of passive steering.
Does this mean that all torsion bar'd vehicles have passive rear wheel steering given the way the lateral forces impact on the rear suspension setup??
As far as I understand it, yes. It's the way the bars act under force that cause them to move.
Nope. Nothing to do with the torsion bars, it's the beam mounts and to a lesser extent, flex in the trailing arms
hmm surely a hell of a lot of lateral force is needed to create a movement in the arms (i assume it's the arms which move?)
(05-11-2012, 06:46 PM)Rippthrough Wrote: [ -> ]Nope. Nothing to do with the torsion bars, it's the beam mounts and to a lesser extent, flex in the trailing arms
How to the beams allow a change of direction of the wheels, from just lateral forces
It's mainly just the whole beam setup flexing on the rubber mounts
It must be to do with the torsion bars because as the trailing arm twists on the shaft the torsion bar moves from horisontal to diagonal meaning that the horizontal distance between its ends changes and this pulls on the trailing arm causing it to toe in/out slightly giving the passive rear wheel steering.
Pretty sure it's to do with the standard toe in of the trailing arms (GTI6) as weights shifted under heavy cornering it acts as a steer as one wheels up in the air/not doing much. I'm not very technical but that's what I think anywhoo.
Quote:How to the beams allow a change of direction of the wheels, from just lateral forces
The whole beam pivots around the front mounts, hence the big voids in the rear mounts to allow them to move sideways as it pivots, and the voids in the front bushes.
(05-11-2012, 07:22 PM)Rippthrough Wrote: [ -> ]The whole beam pivots around the front mounts, hence the big voids in the rear mounts to allow them to move sideways.
Yeah that makes sense but surely although thats where they move its caused by the effective shortening of the TBs
rubber mounts=movement...............as easy as that.
(05-11-2012, 07:24 PM)Dum-Dum Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2012, 07:22 PM)Rippthrough Wrote: [ -> ]The whole beam pivots around the front mounts, hence the big voids in the rear mounts to allow them to move sideways.
Yeah that makes sense but surely although thats where they move its caused by the effective shortening of the TBs
No, it's from the lateral torque generated at the contact patch.
The TBs would shorten at the same rate at opposite points on the beam, so any pulling in one did would be counteracted by the other doing the same thing on the other side.
It's nothing to do with toe settings or the suspension type, did anybody else actually read that link that burnmw posted? Listen to Ripp, he knows what he's talking about, everyone else is just guessing.
Thanks for the info guys!
x
That's why 306s and 205s have their lovely tuck in under hard cornering and also why when provoked they'll go into oversteer as the rear end is also wanting to follow the corner...
And yeah, its simply the mounts being able to move, that's why cheap shit rear beam mounts just end up failing and sending you into a ditch... Also why when they wear, the beam can flap all over the place, causing funky as handling characteristics....
Is looking forward to solid rear beam mounts even more!
I like passive rear steering when it's on my side, not when it isn't, though!
There's still a small amount even with solid mounts from the flex in the arms. But at least there's less chance of those getting fooked and making the back end wander around...
So; if the rubber mounts allow movement in the beam and thus encourage passive rear wheel stearing, why would you want to involve solid mounts? surely this would discourage passive rear wheel steering and chuck the rear end out?
(06-11-2012, 04:37 PM)ginge191 Wrote: [ -> ]So; if the rubber mounts allow movement in the beam and thus encourage passive rear wheel stearing, why would you want to involve solid mounts? surely this would discourage passive rear wheel steering and chuck the rear end out?
it makes the car much more predictable on the limit with solid mounts but in turn, you loose a bit of comfort and increased road noise. Not much though.
(06-11-2012, 04:37 PM)ginge191 Wrote: [ -> ]So; if the rubber mounts allow movement in the beam and thus encourage passive rear wheel stearing, why would you want to involve solid mounts? surely this would discourage passive rear wheel steering and chuck the rear end out?
The passive steering steers the other way to what you are thinking...
people ain't half the fun of the 306 being the way it handles?
by putting in solid mounts IMO you make the car boring like a focus. indeed the focus may out handle it but it's nowhere near as fun to drive as a 306.......
And when you think about it how much did honda put into r&d on the rear wheel steering prelude and how much fun was that to drive!
If you're putting more loading through the mounts than originally intended it's not a bad idea to stiffen it up somewhat to compensate. At the minute the easy way is completely solid mounts.
stiffen the front up and see how fun the rear is then.... not very even at low speeds the back just wants to keep going. and as ripp says it doesnt steer the way you think it would. ever seen a 306 rolled over and thought he must have been giving it some? below 30 is enough to roll one with a good yank of the wheel
You'd be surprised how little speed you need to roll a car tbh!
(07-11-2012, 01:13 AM)Rippthrough Wrote: [ -> ]If you're putting more loading through the mounts than originally intended it's not a bad idea to stiffen it up somewhat to compensate. At the minute the easy way is completely solid mounts.
That almost sounds as if you're planning something...?
i've driven a multitude of cars and it's all about finding the balance of the car. I learnt to drive in a triumph dolomite so that should show how long i been driving lol.
All i'm saying is my definition of fun in a 306 means to leave the passive wheel steering as it's fun stepping over the limit and having the ability to correct yourself.......
(07-11-2012, 07:28 AM)Poodle Wrote: [ -> ]That almost sounds as if you're planning something...?
